Revisiting towing with diesel C5s
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  1. #1
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    Default Revisiting towing with diesel C5s

    I know that there has been some entries on this already but mainly unsatisfactory. Some even claim that it is illegal to tow with a Citroen. Bah-hooey!

    I have just bought a 1000kg Viscount pop top as well as a towbar with dedicated electrics from the UK.

    http://www.towcar.info/gebruikservar...troen&serie=C5

    I am already looking for some happy holidaying with the two combined in what the poms call a tow 'outfit' rated at 110 kmh and >20% gradients. Could not find an australian supplier up to it.

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    OK, the towbar weight may be exceeded a little but I really doubt this will matter much, particularly if we pay attention to our load distribution when packing. What do you think?

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    citroens build the best towcars ... nice long wheelbase, self leveling suspension ... excellent brakes. You'll be fine, the cars never the problem, it's the plod if they pull you over and find the towbar plate states maximum download of 70kg ..... and the caravans build plate says 120kg

    I must admit, I've never worried about it

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    Default Revisiting Towing with a c5

    Have a look at a UK site "What tow Car" It wil give a lot of data on performance ,weights ,etc.

  4. #4
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    Default Plod !!

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    citroens build the best towcars ... nice long wheelbase, self leveling suspension ... excellent brakes. You'll be fine, the cars never the problem, it's the plod if they pull you over and find the towbar plate states maximum download of 70kg ..... and the caravans build plate says 120kg

    I must admit, I've never worried about it

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Hi
    In my long career of driving, I have never, I repeat never ever seen a plod look at anything except a licence and do a breathaliser test and perhaps a walk around a dodgy looking vehicle with P plates.

    To say they might check the trailer plate or the towbar plate or, say, the tire date or the seatbelt compliance or the catalitc convertor or ?????????? like some pedantics on this forum suggest is just fantasy .

    Perhaps they have better things to do trying to ensure the average joe blow is sober and obeying the normal road rules

    Just use common sense and enjoy life a bit
    jaahn.

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi
    In my long career of driving, I have never, I repeat never ever seen a plod look at anything except a licence and do a breathaliser test and perhaps a walk around a dodgy looking vehicle with P plates.

    To say they might check the trailer plate or the towbar plate or, say, the tire date or the seatbelt compliance or the catalitc convertor or ?????????? like some pedantics on this forum suggest is just fantasy .

    Perhaps they have better things to do trying to ensure the average joe blow is sober and obeying the normal road rules

    Just use common sense and enjoy life a bit
    jaahn.
    Back in the good old days I had plenty of times when the plod would go over my car, search it and try and find some bit of evidence or whatever, but for the last 20 years that practice seems to have stopped, probably in proportion to the amount of cops in this area.
    I have seen police and RTA mobile inspection stations targeting cars in the last few years, but that was in an area full of fully sick rice burner doof mobiles who were being targeted specificaly, and they just waved me on.

    You can probably tow nearly anything with just about anything else, but it comes down to safety headroom.
    I'm not a big fan of towing heavy loads with light vehicles (yes a car, even a citroen is a light vehicle) but as long as you are careful on the speed and braking distances, and the gearbox is up to the task of retarding the effect of gravity down hills, I dont imagine you will suffer catastrophic failure without first doing something very stupid.
    Just dont do anything stupid and you'll be right.

    Jo

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Back in the good old days I had plenty of times when the plod would go over my car, search it and try and find some bit of evidence or whatever, but for the last 20 years that practice seems to have stopped, probably in proportion to the amount of cops in this area.
    I have seen police and RTA mobile inspection stations targeting cars in the last few years, but that was in an area full of fully sick rice burner doof mobiles who were being targeted specificaly, and they just waved me on.

    You can probably tow nearly anything with just about anything else, but it comes down to safety headroom.
    I'm not a big fan of towing heavy loads with light vehicles (yes a car, even a citroen is a light vehicle) but as long as you are careful on the speed and braking distances, and the gearbox is up to the task of retarding the effect of gravity down hills, I dont imagine you will suffer catastrophic failure without first doing something very stupid.
    Just dont do anything stupid and you'll be right.

    Jo
    he's not really talking big weights in a 1ton caravan.... I hope it's not a swaying piece of crap Viscount Ultralight (with the pretend alko chassis). If this is the case, it WILL be legal to tow, and downright bloody scary. The C5's structure should be good for more. It's the same unpinnings as the poogoe 407 with crappy bumpy thumpy suspension that'll drag it's @rse up the road if you load the towbar. The poogoe can tow 1.9tons legally (remember the modern cars weigh a shitload. I'm pretty sure the "empty" weight of a 407/C5 is a staggering 1.7tons ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  7. #7
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    Thanks for all the replies. Not worried about the cops. Not even sure where they'd find a compliance plate on a tow-bar No, Shane, it's not an ultralite, but a venturer. Nice heavy steel chassis, well, for a lightweight caravan. Someone has put a bull-bar with two tyres on the back so I guess that will help the weight on the tow-bar in any case. I reckon the Citroen diesel must be the best car for towing with its 370 Nm of torque. Sounds like a lot to me and with self-levelling suspension. Apparently the only trouble is de-hitching Mmmm, must remember that. Would be great for some advice on doing the electrics. I have ordered a dedicated twin as recommended by PFJones (no relations) and it looks sweet.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdjones View Post
    Thanks for all the replies. Not worried about the cops. Not even sure where they'd find a compliance plate on a tow-bar
    It should be stamped or plated on an external and easily visible part of the bar.

    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdjones View Post
    Thanks for all the replies. Not worried about the cops. Not even sure where they'd find a compliance plate on a tow-bar No, Shane, it's not an ultralite, but a venturer. Nice heavy steel chassis, well, for a lightweight caravan. Someone has put a bull-bar with two tyres on the back so I guess that will help the weight on the tow-bar in any case. I reckon the Citroen diesel must be the best car for towing with its 370 Nm of torque. Sounds like a lot to me and with self-levelling suspension. Apparently the only trouble is de-hitching Mmmm, must remember that. Would be great for some advice on doing the electrics. I have ordered a dedicated twin as recommended by PFJones (no relations) and it looks sweet.
    Hi
    I made my own towbar for my C5 and also fitted the wiring, some years ago. Mine is a 2001 petrol.

    I found a genuine Citroen wiring kit on the web, in the UK, which made the wiring a bit easier. The crux of it is the 'black box' and the plugs to just plug it in. I had to fit our style trailer plug of course. There was no information on the actual wiring diagram of the kit.

    The black box is most likely a 7way relay which takes the load off the cars wiring and does not upset the current sensing. It also has a switch in the plug to tell the car the trailer is there so the reverse sensors don't cause grief. Mine does not have them so no comment ? This feature caused me some problems as it caused a constant small discharge through a relay but I just disconnect the relay now when not towing.

    These 7 way relays are available everywhere in the UK, but seem to be a complete mystery here in good old Australia. The auto electricians seem to keep their existence secret to keep the business to themselves or whatever. Buy one on the web and fit by common sense.

    My C5 tows OK and I have a car trailer which I tow with no problems. I also built that and cut it back to only one axle to make it easier to handle. It has had up to a C5 on it and been good for a long tow. Ballance is everthing to get a good result and I also use those "shepards crook' type assist bars. Two for small loads or 4 for heavy/or long trips. I have a 16 ft caravan now which I have not as yet towed with it but anticipate no problems.
    jaahn

    PS What is this; "I have ordered a dedicated twin" ?
    Last edited by jaahn; 20th April 2013 at 12:28 PM. Reason: question

  10. #10
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    Hi Jaahn,

    A 'dedicated twin' is a dedicated wiring kit complete with relays etc and two 7 pin sockets, one for the indicators/brake lights, the other for reversing lights, fridge, and battery charging in the caravan as well as a sensor wire. I was wondering what that is for. I have the wiring diagrams for the plugs. Most of it should be straight forward enough except this 'sensor' pin. Is that to sense that a load is indeed attached? Just wondering.

  11. #11
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Back in the good old days I had plenty of times when the plod would go over my car, search it and try and find some bit of evidence or whatever, but for the last 20 years that practice seems to have stopped, probably in proportion to the amount of cops in this area.
    I have seen police and RTA mobile inspection stations targeting cars in the last few years, but that was in an area full of fully sick rice burner doof mobiles who were being targeted specificaly, and they just waved me on.

    You can probably tow nearly anything with just about anything else, but it comes down to safety headroom.
    I'm not a big fan of towing heavy loads with light vehicles (yes a car, even a citroen is a light vehicle) but as long as you are careful on the speed and braking distances, and the gearbox is up to the task of retarding the effect of gravity down hills, I dont imagine you will suffer catastrophic failure without first doing something very stupid.
    Just dont do anything stupid and you'll be right.

    Jo
    Totally agree Jo, just don't do anything stupid, that goes for any towing in any vehicle/trailer combo. Here is my hdi (fitted with a genuine towbar (2000kg rated) and wiring loom) on it's way to another race meet, this time from Syd to Qld. When towing I leave ample room between myself and the car in front, I tackle each hill and decent according to the feel I get back from the car and according to weather conditions, I'm never in any hurry and she sits happily on 100kph if I have to but I prefer 90kph because it matches the cruising music I listen to. The car I'm towing is a small-medium Fiat with most of the dead weight ripped out i.e interior and the likes, the trailer is a very sturdy dual axle with nice length on the draw bar. I've probably put about 10,000kms of towing onto the C5 and she's eaten up every meter without a hitch or worry. I understand that she's only a 2.0 so I'm never aggressive on the take off and she's been real good to me. Impressive fuel economy even on the tow.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Revisiting  towing with diesel C5s-100_1593-v3-25%25.jpg  

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPY124 View Post
    Totally agree Jo, just don't do anything stupid, that goes for any towing in any vehicle/trailer combo. Here is my hdi (fitted with a genuine towbar (2000kg rated) and wiring loom) on it's way to another race meet, this time from Syd to Qld. When towing I leave ample room between myself and the car in front, I tackle each hill and decent according to the feel I get back from the car and according to weather conditions, I'm never in any hurry and she sits happily on 100kph if I have to but I prefer 90kph because it matches the cruising music I listen to. The car I'm towing is a small-medium Fiat with most of the dead weight ripped out i.e interior and the likes, the trailer is a very sturdy dual axle with nice length on the draw bar. I've probably put about 10,000kms of towing onto the C5 and she's eaten up every meter without a hitch or worry. I understand that she's only a 2.0 so I'm never aggressive on the take off and she's been real good to me. Impressive fuel economy even on the tow.
    I doubt the police would pull that over .... It looks really well put together. The trailers not one of those massive rental trailers (easily 1.3ton empty ). The car being towed is small and light. It doesn't look like it's illegal at all (infact it's probably within the tow specs of the car if you ignore tongue weight like we all must).,

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPY124 View Post
    Totally agree Jo, just don't do anything stupid, that goes for any towing in any vehicle/trailer combo. Here is my hdi (fitted with a genuine towbar (2000kg rated) and wiring loom) on it's way to another race meet, this time from Syd to Qld. When towing I leave ample room between myself and the car in front, I tackle each hill and decent according to the feel I get back from the car and according to weather conditions, I'm never in any hurry and she sits happily on 100kph if I have to but I prefer 90kph because it matches the cruising music I listen to. The car I'm towing is a small-medium Fiat with most of the dead weight ripped out i.e interior and the likes, the trailer is a very sturdy dual axle with nice length on the draw bar. I've probably put about 10,000kms of towing onto the C5 and she's eaten up every meter without a hitch or worry. I understand that she's only a 2.0 so I'm never aggressive on the take off and she's been real good to me. Impressive fuel economy even on the tow.
    I doubt the police would pull that over .... It looks really well put together. The trailers not one of those massive rental trailers (easily 1.3ton empty ). The car being towed is small and light. It doesn't look like it's illegal at all (infact it's probably within the tow specs of the car if you ignore tongue weight like we all must).,

    If it's heavy, I usually tow at 80 -> 90km/h.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdjones View Post
    Hi Jaahn,

    A 'dedicated twin' is a dedicated wiring kit complete with relays etc and two 7 pin sockets, one for the indicators/brake lights, the other for reversing lights, fridge, and battery charging in the caravan as well as a sensor wire. I was wondering what that is for. I have the wiring diagrams for the plugs. Most of it should be straight forward enough except this 'sensor' pin. Is that to sense that a load is indeed attached? Just wondering.
    Yes this is the purpose of the sensing wire it lets you computor know a trailer is being pulled so when it starts to sway your braking will correct it. Sadly importers ignore this fact and fit towbars made here or new zealand with bypass wiring that ends up being a potential safety risk which is ignored by ADRs even when they are informed of this problem. it was only after threatening legal action did the local citroen dealer change my wiring to the correct original citroen wiring and i now find other dealers here still believe their by pass system are ok. Buyer just be aware and ask questions or better still dont get them to fit your towbar.Nothing will be done until a court rules soomeone was killed by this bad practice of the dealers.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPY124 View Post
    Totally agree Jo, just don't do anything stupid, that goes for any towing in any vehicle/trailer combo. Here is my hdi (fitted with a genuine towbar (2000kg rated) and wiring loom) on it's way to another race meet, this time from Syd to Qld. When towing I leave ample room between myself and the car in front, I tackle each hill and decent according to the feel I get back from the car and according to weather conditions, I'm never in any hurry and she sits happily on 100kph if I have to but I prefer 90kph because it matches the cruising music I listen to. The car I'm towing is a small-medium Fiat with most of the dead weight ripped out i.e interior and the likes, the trailer is a very sturdy dual axle with nice length on the draw bar. I've probably put about 10,000kms of towing onto the C5 and she's eaten up every meter without a hitch or worry. I understand that she's only a 2.0 so I'm never aggressive on the take off and she's been real good to me. Impressive fuel economy even on the tow.
    The wheels on the C5 looks like a 2.2L DTT to me (I've never seen them on any other model spec.) and not a 2.0 L, so I'm not at all surprised that it will pull a dual axle trailer together with a "Fix It Again Tony" model 124.
    2014 C5 2.2 HDI Limited Edition Sedan
    2007 C5 2.2 HDI Hatchback
    2007 C4 1.6 HDI EGS Sedan
    Peugeot Mi16 Series 2

  16. #16
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    That looks like a 131 to me - I had a 124S sedan once, best handling front-engine rear-wheel drive car I've ever driven.
    I'm assuming the 131 was similarly equipped underneath.

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