Greek '68 ID 21F
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Thread: Greek '68 ID 21F

  1. #1
    Tadpole beachbum's Avatar
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    Default Greek '68 ID 21F

    Hello from sunny Athens, Greece.

    I always admired the DS, but was put off by storiew about hydraulic leaks and rusty bodies. I decided to face my fear and when I saw a very cheap classified, I striked.

    I became the owner of a rough ID 21 F, and being a Citroen virgin will need all th help Ican get.

    Mechanically it has been overhauled, the engine and brakes reconditioned, and I just sorted a few hydraulic leaks.

    The frame is quite bad, with rust in all the usual places. The body panels are OK, but painted a flat un-original blue, plus the doors are from a later model.

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    The interior is also rough and needs to be recovered.

    Thnakfully the car came with loads of spares, including 7 doors, 4 rear safari fenders, interior parts, pumps, spheres, and an extra engine block.








  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Interesting... the doors are not readily interchangeable. Being a 21 I'd suspect it is right on the change of model, last of the flat dash, first of the lift-up handles...

    If you can fight the tin-worms to a standstill and get some gloss on the paint (plus a good scrub etc) you'll have a very nice car which is immune to speed humps.

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    Fellow Frogger! Mort Subite's Avatar
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    Mix of years here.
    Try this:
    Lift up door handles 72>75 = diecast 72>74, plastic n alloy 74>75.
    The reversing lights (to my understanding) indicates a 73>75.
    The dash 65(?)>68.
    Four headlights indicate its a 68>75.

    Seems to me to have had some kind of resto over the years (non pallas B pillar trim, but pallas door rubbing strips).
    And most importantly its great that it is still here and working!
    CITROEN CAR CLUB of NSW - MEMBER. www.citroencarclub.org.au. . .www.facebook.com/CCCNSW
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    Tadpole beachbum's Avatar
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    It is a 1968 model, that has picked up varius bits through the years.

    I plan to do a full resto and bring it back to original spec. Angora bleu with gold jersey interior.

    I have a full set of second hand doors with the protruding doorhandles. Are they not interchangeable with the ones fitted on the car?

  5. #5
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
    It is a 1968 model, that has picked up varius bits through the years.

    I plan to do a full resto and bring it back to original spec. Angora bleu with gold jersey interior.

    I have a full set of second hand doors with the protruding doorhandles. Are they not interchangeable with the ones fitted on the car?
    I think it's the door latches and the corresponding pillar catches that are different between the push-button and the lift-up handles.

    Looking at the engine compartment pic, that is the strangest fusebox I've seen on a D in quite a while. Wired like that, I know that isn't factory. The system is probably suffering from the usual insulation rot.

    Backup lights are earlier than '73, but I think it split as a US requirement from '69, optional everywhere else.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Fellow Frogger! Mort Subite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    I think it's the door latches and the corresponding pillar catches that are different between the push-button and the lift-up handles.

    Looking at the engine compartment pic, that is the strangest fusebox I've seen on a D in quite a while. Wired like that, I know that isn't factory. The system is probably suffering from the usual insulation rot.

    Backup lights are earlier than '73, but I think it split as a US requirement from '69, optional everywhere else.
    From what I have seen here in Australia yes the door catches on the frame are very different from the late model improvements the late model latches and catches are anti burst, the pushin button type of handles do not have the anti-burst catches and as they age get troublesome to adjust so they close and latch properly as they get excessive wear that doesnt seem to have affected the late model improved system. To change the doors you need to change the catches too.

    Oh yes, the rubber coated wire harness fitted from that period (67>69 approx) would have disolved and caused some kind of short long ago. For my money Id start with sorting ANY electrical issue first but considering a change of the wire harness, at least from the engine to the dash. You should be able to buy the correct LHD harness as a repo these days, but not in the decomposing ruber coated wire!

    Ah yep, now you mention it cars in Australia also had reversing lights as early as turn of 1970. I also think that the requirement here in was a patchwork with states choosing to adopt or not...
    CITROEN CAR CLUB of NSW - MEMBER. www.citroencarclub.org.au. . .www.facebook.com/CCCNSW
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    00FF7512 DS23SAFARI "Pull up to my bumper Baby, in your long black limousine."
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  7. #7
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Subite View Post
    Oh yes, the rubber coated wire harness fitted from that period (67>69 approx) would have disolved and caused some kind of short long ago. For my money Id start with sorting ANY electrical issue first but considering a change of the wire harness, at least from the engine to the dash. You should be able to buy the correct LHD harness as a repo these days, but not in the decomposing ruber coated wire!

    Ah yep, now you mention it cars in Australia also had reversing lights as early as turn of 1970. I also think that the requirement here in was a patchwork with states choosing to adopt or not...
    Aye on the replacement harness. There is one seller on eBay.fr (sylvain1230_0) who usually has them. I don't know where they're made, though. Beachbum, you are a lucky man. Be thankful that the rear harness is, at a minimum, repairable in situ. They usually don't go bad. Trust me on this, you do not want to go through the pain of replacing a rear harness on a wagon. The front, by contrast isn't specially hard to do- you just need to pay attention to detail. Removing the dash on a pre-'70 ID is pretty easy.

    From what little I've seen, backup light kits were all over the map in terms of type. It looks like this car has the desirable factory setup with the switch at the nose of the transmission. Beachbum, is there a switch on the dash for the lamps? I ask because I don't think backup lamps appeared ex work until '69.

    Mort, your comment about which states deciding whether to adopt or not reminds me of the time when quad headlights made their appearance in the late '50's. Some states here hadn't changed law enough to allow quads for a short time, and so we wound up with the oddity of some cars having quad headlamps, others having dual.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Tadpole beachbum's Avatar
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    I took the car out for a short drive by the beach. I am trying to bond with it before I send it away for restoration. It really is a wonderfull machine. I really wish it was in a better state.

    There is a terrible judder at speed from the front suspension. My mechanic told me the front suspesion needs a coplete overhaul that would neccesitate the engine to be removed. if I start like this, I might as well do the whole car.




















  9. #9
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Beachbum, we're here to help. Myself and Robmac are pretty good on electrics. Richo and Citroenfan know the hydraulics inside-out. Several others here have survived doing complete restorations- see Double Chevron's long-running post about his ID19 for an inspiration.

    What did your mechanic actually say? He may be the best mechanic in Greece, but a vague diagnosis on a D can become frighteningly expensive.

    Try something before you go too wild- remove and thoroughly clean your front wheels. Clean them right down to the paint as far as possible. The D was originally designed to run with no wheel weights, and years of mud, grease, and other road debris on the inner portion of the wheel can cause some interesting problems- at speed.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  10. #10
    Tadpole beachbum's Avatar
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    The wheels are freshly balanced and powdercoated, wearing brand new Michelin 180 tyres.

    The problem , according to my mechanic, in located at the pivot point of the front right suspension arms. There is excessive wear and the arms are a bit loose.

    http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/ds/imag...uspension1.jpg

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Mort Subite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
    The wheels are freshly balanced and powdercoated, wearing brand new Michelin 180 tyres.

    The problem , according to my mechanic, in located at the pivot point of the front right suspension arms. There is excessive wear and the arms are a bit loose.

    http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/ds/imag...uspension1.jpg
    If thats true, thats a rare failure. In so much as Ive not heard of that problem so far.
    Cracked 'H' frames, yes> Ball joints and steering relays failing yes.

    Quite apart from anything else I would be replaceing the bump stops all round ASAP, otherwise you will be splitting rubber return boots everytime you go to HI and everytime it settles to LOW.

    'she' needs your help!
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    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Not a rare failure. The arms must be in poor shape from displacement of the factory grease, or failed seals. The bearings subsequently wear.
    Arms are available on an exchange basis from various suppliers in Europe.

    Here's one source http://www.franzose.de/en/Citroen-DS...chse/ANR33166/
    and another
    http://www.citroworld.com/tableaux/i...=86&itemId=782
    The arms are different between the Berline and Break (Safari)

    This is easier than trying to attempt the job yourself, special tools and skills are necessary. Replacement of the arms is straightforward, provided preventative measures are taken with other components to prevent further stress on the parts.

    There are two well documented procedures to prevent this failure, one for greasing the entire arm, the other to fill with heavy oil. Entails drilling a hole and either tapping the thread for a grease nipple or screw.
    This is usually to address the condition described above and allow the arms to last longer.

    Cracked "H" frames, whoever coined the phrase is unknowing. There is no "frame" as such, they are suspension pivot frame mounting points. The closest thing to an "H" is the alloy frame, which doesn't crack!

    Their failure is caused by driving the car with flat or low pressure in the front suspension spheres, the transfer of shock (as there is no rubber isolation) loads the mounting point excessively and eventually cracks the horizontal mounting tubes where they are fitted to the front chassis.

    A lack of maintenance, specifically the lubrication by greasing and adjusting of the ball joints and steering relays, cracked and torn boots protecting the ball joints and the ingress of water into the steering relay upper bearing cup eventually leads to failure.

    Abuse, neglect and ignorance are the major cause of failure in these cars.
    I'm pleased to see you are willing to address the problems and have them rectified correctly.
    Your mechanic should be able to advise which other parts of the suspension require attention.

    If the arms need replacing, replace the bump stops if they are worn at that time. It's much easier with the arm removed. I've done a few.

    Hope this helps
    Last edited by richo; 14th April 2013 at 12:04 PM. Reason: added links

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    Tadpole beachbum's Avatar
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    Thank you for the info.

    Is it true that it is an engine out job to change them?

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    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
    Thank you for the info.

    Is it true that it is an engine out job to change them?
    No.

    It is an engine out to repair the pivot tubes which can crack where they are welded to the chassis, particularly if plates are welded in place.
    Did mine when the Safari was converted to BVH, they weren't cracked, as it happens. The job was done as a "precaution?. Unlikely that I would ever run my car with flat or low pressure suspension spheres.

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    Fellow Frogger! deesse's Avatar
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    Nice shots Tadpole and good luck with the resto. My two cents worth re the vibration - check the engine mounts
    cheers Tony

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    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
    Thank you for the info.

    Is it true that it is an engine out job to change them?
    Suspension arm assemblies can be changed without pulling the engine but it takes an awful lot of work.

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    Fellow Frogger! JAJEA's Avatar
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    Something outside the "Citroen issues".

    Giassou Greek Beachbum,

    Where about in Sunny Athina are you?

    We may be over there later this year, I am originally from the north of Greece and would like to visit Greece on our way back later this year from a visit to Europe (to be confirmed).

    We will be visiting Trikala as we have friends there and our home village north of Thessaloniki if we go.

    You may advise outside the forum to: john.albanis@bigpond.com.

    Best regards,

    John and Jenni Albanis

  18. #18
    Tadpole beachbum's Avatar
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    I took a very deep breath and decided to do a full resto.


    The frame now, halfway through fitting loads and loads of new metal, includung two comlete new front "tusks".










    The drive train and the major suspension parts are ready to be mounted.










    I have decide to fit a 5 speed gearbox, alternator and electonic ignition.

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    Fellow Frogger! lozenge's Avatar
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    I was just a wide-eyed impressionable boy in short pants when the DS arrived on the planet,
    which may explain why when I see photos like these of one being restored I get all goosebumpy and sniffly.
    and it's in Greece as well! (still the best country in the world outside australia, despite the present suffering.)
    best wishes with this.

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    Tadpole beachbum's Avatar
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    The restoration is taking place in Milan, Italy. I could not find a place that could carry out this kind of work to a decent standard here.

    Here are a few other car in their workshop.








  21. #21
    skp
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    Ye Gods! A SERIOUS restoration !! What a delight to see. Doing this will give you many years of rewarding motoring.
    I should be in Athens in October.. I'll look out for you!!

    skp

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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbum View Post
    The restoration is taking place in Milan, Italy. I could not find a place that could carry out this kind of work to a decent standard here.

    Here are a few other car in their workshop.







    Milan Italy! They must be passionate about those cars!
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    Member Pommiefrog's Avatar
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    Yiasou file mou,

    Very nice to see these photos and to learn that your DS is undergoing a very good restoration...

    Keep the photos coming!
    Regards,

    George
    Leicestershire, England
    1971 DS21 EFI, Pallas, BVH, Blog:http://www.mypallas.net

  24. #24
    Tadpole beachbum's Avatar
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    The frame is now ready, clean and rust free (literally). It will be sealed and painted over the following weeks.










    Some of the replaced panels.



    I was amazed to see how rotten some box sections ,that looked OK from outside, were.



    The door bottoms are folded out, cleaned, treated and resealed.

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    I also managed to find this beauty.


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