CX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default CX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management

    I though I mentioned my most recent upgrade here on my Citroen CX GTi T2:

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    I went from Bosch-L Jetronic to modern KdFi engine management.
    Advantage:
    - all new wiring and water-tight connectors
    - no more fragile air mass meter
    - all modern sensors around
    - coil on plug
    - smooth, reliable and fast(er) ride

    some pics:
    https://picasaweb.google.com/1011761...eat=directlink

    had this done in an renowned Citroen SM, CX garage. They work with an experienced tuner company.
    KdFi is a good basic set, can be programmed as pleased / needed.
    adjustment of mapping can be done with a laptop / USB port, even while driving.

    she now just runs great and regular as a Swiss clockwork !!!
    In 3rd I can lift my foot off the gas pedal and let her roll/glide on, on her own, at very slow speed without hickups. But if I put her fully down in 3rd you will be more than impressed from the thunder and force that is released.
    I am up to what the clutch can handle, so I still have to slightly lower boost control so it will save my clutch disc.

    Not very original Citroen but I hope to have upgraded to a more solid and reliable setup, compared to the old parts. :-)

  2. #2
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    We have spoken before, I'm a little further on with mine now.

    Just need to plug it in all the fittings are in place, crank, air temp, O2 and EGT sensor, electronic boost control too. I'm hoping this just refines the car and maybe sell the old Maikonicss stuff.

    I have a choice of crank or cam triggers both work, and a repeatable method of drilling the crank (in car) to take a trigger wheel, a work colleague helped me by drawing the tool and trigger wheel on cad. We sent them off to a laser cutter, I finished inserting drill bushes and hey presto you don't have to take the motor out to fit a trigger wheel in a CX. The next few weeks might see it up and running, I've had the kit over two years but life got in the way of fitting it there's a a satisfaction seeing it come together when you do it yourself too, I enjoy the challenge. I kept the hard switch for the NOS and the trigger is machined in the back of the throttle plate.

    CX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-16092011969sml.jpgCX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-16092011965.jpgCX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-2013-03-24_12-54-58_705sml.jpgCX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-2013-03-24_13-16-29_565sml.jpgCX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-2013-03-30_13-19-27_342sml.jpg CX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-2013-03-24_16-38-14_929sml.jpgCX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-2013-04-01_14-28-57_889sml.jpgCX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-2013-04-01_15-09-42_725sml.jpgCX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-2013-04-01_15-10-12_48sml.jpg

  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    yep we spoke before

    Nice pictorial of what you're doing !
    and....NICE solution on the trigger wheel !!

    as for all that are somewhat new to this approach:
    A new engine management system (EMS) needs timing / triggering with a sensor somewhere, somewhat like the regular/old sensor on the flywheel in a CX. But the original sensor doesn't work for modern EMS, because of the number of marks on the flywheel (teeth actually).

    My garage took the engine out, and drilled holes in the side of the flywheel for timing. This approach with a signal from the flywheel gets the most constant signal. Pulleys and cams have some variations, due to chains connecting and the stuff that is on them (AC pump, waterpump, LHM pump). This position for timing gives (minor) variation on the new engine management system. I say minor, because here in The Netherlands there is an example of a CX with a sensor mounted somewhere secondary, and has double the amount of power and torgue (related to modifications other than just the timing sensor of course). So the variation on timing is not really a great issue in this power monster.
    But, timing on the crank of flywheel is just better. Like my solution, or CGATīs great solution for timing on the side of the crankshaft.

    CGAT, I tried interpreting your text and pictures. you have 35 and an empty spot ? (I tried counting). That is also a standard combination for timing ? (I donīt know all configurations....) (mine is 60 minus 2).
    Do you add a small wheel on the side of the crankshaft or do you actually modify something existing ?
    Your first timing picture is a solution next to the pulley ?? (and the second few on the crank solution) Or are they all on the same (crank)?

    My approach requires the engine to be taken out. That is an extra day work, with more $$$ on the bill. But it is really the time to get to do major maintenance on other parts that wear and are hard to get to.
    I prefer to drive a solid CX with parts up in shape, and minimizing chances of requiring roadside assistance at any point (with inevitably confirming the picture my wife has of old Citroenīs......)
    Last edited by cx25gtit2; 2nd April 2013 at 06:49 AM. Reason: typo

  4. #4
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    I went with a cam trigger to start with because I didn't want take the engine out as it was in good order. The version of the software in the KDFI didn't work on my wheel (at the time) a software update cured this but not before I had worked out (and commited myself) how to the 36-1 wheel on the front. The cam chain version is accurate enough.

    Now it can run from EITHER trigger wheel, it doesn't need BOTH to run. I know of Everts car, I met him at the ICCR last year. If your car has standard pistons don't raise the boost too much, the ring lands can and do break.

    My car is a Mai konics conversion car I bought a 270hp kit about 18 years ago and built on that eventually getting it to the 400hp spec offered by Mai konics. Power isn't a problem, I'm hoping this conversion refines the car and recovers a little fuel economy. I have also fitted LGP nozzles ready for fitting that in the future too. Having had a monster motor the last rebuild had a softer more streetable camshaft put in it. As I get older reliability becomes the better option, as one gets fed up of being in the garage I have still have a spare motor, so who knows..

    2500 cc
    M25 662 Citroen OE engine (brand new old stock stripped and rebuilt)
    Lightened and Balanced bottom end
    Forged JE pistons and Total seal piston rings
    Re profiled standard cam and non Citroen valve springs replacing the Mai konics version (I have both Mai konics profiled cams on a shelf)
    Gas flowed 'using a flow bench' and ported refitted cylinder head, replacing the Mai konics version compression is around 6.5:1
    Remote thermostatic oil filter and 19 row oil cooler
    Mai konics T2 flywheel with new hand built clutch
    8 injector twin airflow meter fuelling (using 2* T1 OE injector sets) reworked throttle body
    Twin green cone air filters
    Bosch 044 fuel pumps
    Holley feed (to the swirl tank) pump

    FSE Bullet fuel filters
    Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator
    Atec Stainless fuel hose and alloy fittings
    RS500 intercooler
    T3/4 hybrid water-cooled Garret turbo 'old tech'
    HKS SSQV bov
    up rated waste gate spring
    Samco and other silicone hoses air and water
    Powerflow stainless steel exhaust.
    MSD ignition, coil and leads
    NGK B9HV plugs
    Citroen CX Diesel T2 crown and pinion in a GTI Turbo gearbox, this was brand new in 2000
    Rose jointed gear selectors
    Wizards of NOS direct port Nitrous

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! CorneSoutAfrica's Avatar
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    Hey CXGT25gtit2, I just read our last post.

    I find the part regarding using a crank sensor instead of a cam sensor for more accurate timing interesing but I agree, just never thought it could make any difference, but I guess with these advance systems it can make quite a difference?

    I will see how my DS reacts as I used basically a camshaft timing sensor instead of the crankshaft sensor.... I don't really feel like taking the engine out again to change my setup to the crank sensor setup ( with the system I am using, spitronics, I can do it) because the orinigal look is important.

    I am really impressed with this modern EFI system you are using, I hope you get troublefree driving!!

    Cheers
    Corne
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  6. #6
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    I wouldn't worry cam or crank timing in your case. It will be an upgrade compared to the old EFI system no matter what.
    Perhaps crank is slightly more secure, for general purposes it will suffice more than enough. Only in the high power tuning range these subtle improvements will matter. Let us know your progress (also on the throttle valve position sensor you needed upgrading).

  7. #7
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cx25gtit2 View Post
    I wouldn't worry cam or crank timing in your case. It will be an upgrade compared to the old EFI system no matter what.
    Perhaps crank is slightly more secure, for general purposes it will suffice more than enough. Only in the high power tuning range these subtle improvements will matter. Let us know your progress (also on the throttle valve position sensor you needed upgrading).
    If cam driven distributors or triggers weren't accurate enough, why would these racing gurus be still using/ selling them for top sport use? Just a thought

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    I must agree, if you have good and stable cam function and timing, cam triggering will surely work.

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mork63ukCGAT View Post
    We have spoken before, I'm a little further on with mine now.

    Just need to plug it in all the fittings are in place, crank, air temp, O2 and EGT sensor, electronic boost control too. I'm hoping this just refines the car and maybe sell the old Maikonicss stuff.

    I have a choice of crank or cam triggers both work, and a repeatable method of drilling the crank (in car) to take a trigger wheel, a work colleague helped me by drawing the tool and trigger wheel on cad. We sent them off to a laser cutter, I finished inserting drill bushes and hey presto you don't have to take the motor out to fit a trigger wheel in a CX. The next few weeks might see it up and running, I've had the kit over two years but life got in the way of fitting it there's a a satisfaction seeing it come together when you do it yourself too, I enjoy the challenge. I kept the hard switch for the NOS and the trigger is machined in the back of the throttle plate.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Sell them to me ... sell them to me I want Maikonicss

    That's some seriously nice looking work done there. Did you get the modification done at a engineering shop, or did you manage that yourself

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  10. #10
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Sell them to me ... sell them to me I want Maikonicss
    seeya,
    Shane L.
    neeeh, you would rather upgrade to a real and stable modern management.
    I don't know all the fine details on Maikonics, but have read something on it. System upgrade is probably not very high tech, for sure no new or extra sensors, and the air-mass meter stay...... Some-one who opened an modified AEI box even claimes that part was even a placebo / look to do something, but in fact didn't do anything at all.....
    Even if you run into M. parts.... what if it parts don't work, no new original parts available to replace them......
    You can easily achieve some more power with a little higher turbo boost pressure (adjust the spring), and a power boost valve (higher fuel pressure).
    Once I thought I wanted Maikonics, but now I went this way with a modern EMS, I just can't keep that smile of my face when I'm driving !!!

    I may have some spare parts of my original T2 system if anyone is interested ;-)

  11. #11
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Sell them to me ... sell them to me I want Maikonicss

    That's some seriously nice looking work done there. Did you get the modification done at a engineering shop, or did you manage that yourself

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Thanks Shane. I scribbled on a bit of paper what I wanted to acheive for the camshaft trigger wheel, crank trigger and tool, and throttle switch plate.
    My son made the throttle plate for me ( engineering student ) took a bit scrap plate, made it round, flat and put the slots and holes at different depths in it. It accomodates the lever from an old Bosch tps (as used on L Jetronic) to operate the micro switch for the NOS.

    CX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-12032011550sml.jpgCX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-31012011422sml.jpgCX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-01022011426sml.jpg

    The Crank trigger wheel was drawn up on cad as was the the drill jig. These were then laser cut, the jig was counter bored to sit snug to the crank without touching the cam chain. I then bang the jig in the oven so the drill bushes pressed (easily ) in to the it. If I had a lathe and a milling machine I would have done it myself

    I made the camshaft crank angle sensor mount myself from a block of alloy and threw it on a pillar drill
    Last edited by mork63ukCGAT; 4th April 2013 at 05:10 AM.

  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    great job !
    my compliments on yr approach !

  13. #13
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=cx25gtit2;1152171]
    Quote Originally Posted by cx25gtit2 View Post
    neeeh, you would rather upgrade to a real and stable modern management.
    I don't know all the fine details on Maikonics, but have read something on it. System upgrade is probably not very high tech, for sure no new or extra sensors, and the air-mass meter stay...... Some-one who opened an modified AEI box even claimes that part was even a placebo / look to do something, but in fact didn't do anything at all.....
    Even if you run into M. parts.... what if it parts don't work, no new original parts available to replace them......
    You can easily achieve some more power with a little higher turbo boost pressure (adjust the spring), and a power boost valve (higher fuel pressure).
    Once I thought I wanted Maikonics, but now I went this way with a modern EMS, I just can't keep that smile of my face when I'm driving !!!

    I may have some spare parts of my original T2 system if anyone is interested ;-)
    Mine has been stable for 18 years, it is low tech, that is part of the appeal.. it's simplicity! You are correct, the kit has no requirement for additional sensors and does rely on the old style Air flow meters. These are still serviceable even today and no doubt will be in the future. I know the inventor of these, he has always called it and sold it as a conversion, while other refered to it as a 'CHIP'. There was chip stuck in the resin, no doubt this was put there to show (anyone opening it up) that it warranted the 500 quid for the stage one conversion to 230hp non intercooled and 250hp intercooled versions. People paid their money and got what they wanted.


    (I know or have had contact with the some-ones you mention)
    I sold the Maikonics converted car, known as FBAT to a guy that drag raced various vehicles. When the car was laid up, an electronics engineer friend of the car owner offered to open to the box to discover the secret of it. This is where it was delcared the potted item was a fake, I believe due to the fact the main area of concentration was the Chip. This did nothing and it was the discarded items that were ignored that do their stuff. The conversion suppresses the on set of over boost and makes the timing adjustable. I know this for fact, I have put a standard ECU back on my car and it shuts down very quickly when the overboost kicks in, also when running higher and higher boost, the need for the timing changes can be accomodated by adjusting the unit via a variable pot... simples.

    This is a very capable item, that as a plug and play bang per buck, fitted in short time is still a viable option. Without it.. it is dangerous to just up the boost and fuel pressure, even then the overboost limits the amount the pressure can be raised.

    As you say... modern EMS have a lot to offer but the old stuff can still cut it.

  14. #14
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cx25gtit2 View Post
    great job !
    my compliments on yr approach !
    Thank you

    Another reason for not drilling the flywheel. there is nothing to drill!
    CX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-flywheel3.jpg

  15. #15
    Tadpole
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    anyone trying boostpressure and changing stuff, do be carefull !!
    If you go over 1 bar boost you loose your clutch disk because it cant handle the power / torque !

    On your (somewhat not in focus) picture is a flywheel with some modifications ?? for a new clutch ? A part of the side is drilled off ?

  16. #16
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cx25gtit2 View Post
    anyone trying boostpressure and changing stuff, do be carefull !!
    If you go over 1 bar boost you loose your clutch disk because it cant handle the power / torque !

    On your (somewhat not in focus) picture is a flywheel with some modifications ?? for a new clutch ? A part of the side is drilled off ?

    This is old school photo, the flywheel weighs 16lbs standard is 34lb from memory, it has been in the car for around 15 years or more! it is machined flush with the ring gear and the clutch is mounted on pillars, again old school stuff that works. New multi plate clutches are probably the way to go, or better still buy an M5...
    Last edited by mork63ukCGAT; 4th April 2013 at 08:23 AM.

  17. #17
    Tadpole
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    clarified !
    I still have a spare flywheel should I need to go there......

    Quote Originally Posted by mork63ukCGAT View Post
    or better still buy an M5...
    now we're getting off-topic...... ;-)

  18. #18
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    Had a dry run with this stuff now all the connections are in the car, I've kept the ECU under the bonnet rather than in the car. That way I only have a few cables that need to enter the cabin, Tacho signal, boost signal, fuel pump and switched power supply. I can leave the Citroen stuff in place too. I've added an EGT gauge in the car too, it lives where the ash tray was I put it to one side so I can fit the boost gauge later (when I get saved up some more)

    The dry run was successful, injectors ticking away nicely, I just need to make some link pipes for the filters now and I can take the airflow meters off and try starting the car
    CX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-2013-05-27_16-46-00_879sml.jpg

  19. #19
    Tadpole
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    Great progress !
    So now you have a basis mapping in KdFi running the engine ?
    My new KdFi ECU is where the original was. But under the bonnet you can probably locate a comfortable position also.
    Interesting EGT display !
    The EGT gauge is info comming from the KdFi setup, or a separate standalone setup temperature gauge ?

    For megasquirt there is a seriel to bluetooth option. An app will run on your android phone, for reading live info/data and live mapping. neat / handy !
    KdFi uses a USB setup, not sure this bluetooth option is available.... :-(

    You have Samco silicone hoses, I think I saw on your list of upgrades/changes.
    Was that hard to replace the inlet tubing ?
    You combined existing parts to make it work ? Or was that custom made fabricated on special order ?
    That may be interesting parts to replace (just like coolant hoses).

    keep us informed !

  20. #20
    Tadpole
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    PS
    the turbo boost gauge on the original dash cluster on my car works, on your also ?
    not sure how he did it, but I think the used MAP sensor info taken from the KdFi board, and rerouted that to the original Citroen wiring, so the gauge goes up on increased pressure. Doesn't give hard info, but looks/responses as the original dash.

  21. #21
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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    All the instruments will work too, I did say the signal wires were in the cabin Mine, however will need a separate gauge (the MAP sensor on my car is 3 bar not the standard 2) that will be the same as the EGT unit so all the illuination ETC is in harmony with the car.

    RE the silicone hoses mine is nothing like a Turbo 2 CX and mixes stainless tube with Silicone, the intercooler is huge, look up an RS500 intercooler. It was all my work, with the exception og the welding required to the modified Intercooler ETC.

    I've tried to keep mine looking and using as many Citroen parts as possible. I may even refit hollowed out Air flow meters so it still looks the same

    Not really bothered about playing with the car on my phone

    I have my AEI, 2nd Fuel ECU and MSD unit in an XM ECU box under the bonnet now, been there for years so all I'm doing is taking those out and putting this ECU in its place. Can be seen on top of the battery in this picture

    CX GTi Turbo 2 on KdFi engine management-dsc00533sml.jpg

  22. #22
    Tadpole
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    tubing may become an issue for finding a replacement, who hasn't had a torn/worn out tube (either inlet or coolant)......
    so I may look into a silicone alternative for a T2 (KdFi). Possibly CX-Basis in Germany may have some new items coming up. I will check with them also. Mine is just a little off compared to the regular T2. Silicone hoses can be ordered custom upon demand also.

    There is one that may be difficult, the inlet below has an "accordeon" for a 90 degrees angle. May be hard to find a replacement.
    Some detailed pictures of your inlet would be of interest.....

  23. #23
    Member mork63ukCGAT's Avatar
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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Now that's what you call a rock steady idle! Wish mine would idle that well in all situations.

    Are you getting better fuel consumption too?

    Cheers

    Marc
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

  25. #25
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    Not had it out of the garage yet but hey.. it runs

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