C4 1.6 HDi thank god for the internet and forums like this
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default C4 1.6 HDi thank god for the internet and forums like this

    Hi All

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    Just want to pass on my experience as a possible help to others.

    OK C4 Diesel 1.6 about 125000 klm

    Turbo goes.
    So must replace Turbo and do lots of research as to why?
    Turbo shop want to just bolt on a new turbo at $3000
    I source the turbo and new oil feed line as is recommended by all info I have read online.
    This is done, but soon after no oil pressure! Warning lights and alarms sounding! I had asked
    Turbo shop as to why my turbo had failed before I got it replaced. No Answer given.
    So more reading and self diagnosed a blocked sump oil pick up, sump removed and many hours of cleaning
    saw the nearly totally blocked pick up cleared and replaced.

    ALL GOOD????

    NO, I had noticed that my engine had gotten VERY noisy.. I really thought I had damaged it in driving it a couple of klms home at idle with low Oil pressure warnings flashing, but more forum readings revealed an issue which possible was the cause of all of the above issues.

    I found a small post in a "Turbo blown up on C4 thread" where a guy had said that the key reason turbo's were failing on C4's was carbon build up in the oil from fuel injectors that had come loose and were letting in air and creating said carbon deposits. These deposits then set like rock in you engines important bits.

    So Plastic cover off the top of the motor, allen key in the eight bolts, all were loose needing up to 1 complete turn on some.
    Engine is now quiet like it used to be.

    The internet is a mine field of info, some good and some bad, but many times it has helped me. If I had not done all research work, I would be heading to another dead turbo and a cooked engine.

    So if u have a C4 HDi tighten your injector bolts or ask your mechanic to do it.

    Sorry if this has been posted before.

  2. #2
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    Very Interesting...

    I recently bought a 2008 model C4 HDI EGS as a replacement for my AX (see vehicles for sale). After a lifetime of crawling over DS's, two of which I still have, I wanted a vehicle that I could take to 'the man', tell him to fix and hand him my wallet. I noted that even the driver's hand book says it is forbidden to touch their precious diesel.

    Your experience is very educational. When I lift the bonnet all I see is a mass of plastic covers preventing access to all the mechanicals. There are even covers underneath. I feel tempted to check the injector bolts after reading your post, but I don't know how to remove the cover. It appears that they just clip into place, but I don't want to break the symetry of the appearance by using too much force and breaking something. So, how does the cover come off, and also the battery cover, such simple and necessary operations but no help offered in the handbook.

    Thanks for the heads up.

    Cheers
    Richard

  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    Hi Richard

    The cover is held on with small ball in socket type connectors, A simple tug upward away from the motor will see this cover easily come off, and its just as simple to replace

    How many Klm's has yours done? I think this is a problem that is plaguing many C4's in europe and everyone was blaming oil change intervals, but this loose injector information proved to be an issue for me.
    The post I read said that the motor is a ford manufactured unit and Ford recommend these to be checked at each service whereas Citroen did not, hence the turbo failures. I am sure it is not common to all vehicles but it has happened to many already. Simple check either way.
    Last edited by Bmac; 16th March 2013 at 05:22 PM.

  4. #4
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    Hi Bmac,

    My C4 has only 58k Km on it now, so probably not an urgent issue for me. I certainly will try and lift the covers though just to make sure and to satisfy my curiosity as to how the whole show works. I note that I am supposed to let the engine idle for 3 seconds before switching off, something I frequently fail to do. I assume that this is required to allow the turbo to slow down gradually.

    I must say though, that the 1.6 litre HDI/EGS combination is a cracker. It is faster going up the Clyde mountain than my DS 23 Safari even though their weights are similar. Suspension and ride, however, is another story. Will stick with the C4 though as it has outstanding fuel economy, a great air conditioning system and a quiet cabin ambience, things that have been lacking in my years with DS, CX, GS and AX cars. All of these had their own character to compensate though.

    Cheers
    Richard

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger
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    Interesting that the injector clamps were loose. That sounds unusual and the normal problem is removing the injectors. Another common source of noise and vibration from that engine is the air filter box, where the rubber bushes it sits in wear and the air box vibrates against the engine and body. Have a look. I bet the bushes are tired. The C4's scuttle grille also comes away from the windscreen and can vibrate.

    Did the turbo fail because the shaft snapped or oil starvation due to the carbon. I assume it's the latter. What oil change history has the car had? If it's been neglected, then the carbon in the sump problem will extend to every part of the engine and your new turbo has a good chance of a very premature failure. Even with the sump cleaned out, other carbon deposits will be mobilised (plenty in the head's gallery) and make their way to the filter until it bypasses and eventually blocks the turbo feed. If you remove the brake vacuum pump from the end of the head, the oil filter housing, gallery fittings and the exchanger, there will almost certainly be hard carbon deposits there too. There are also gauze filters (replace them) in the banjos on the turbo feed and the drain into the sump will probably need a clean too. There is a modified dipstick, which you should obtain, but most importantly, change the oil regularly remembering the EGS has a particle filter and therefore specific oil needs. You may even find you need to isolate the turbo and change the oil filter every 1,000km until you are not getting chunks of carbon there.

    Another issue that can be a problem is the sump stud at the flywheel end - make sure it's screwed into the block properly before tightening the nut or it's likely to leak.
    Last edited by David S; 18th March 2013 at 12:44 AM.

  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    Hi David

    Thanks for added feedback, All extra info is appreciated.

    As I had said in my original post, the sump pick up was blocked so no it was not the shaft snapped, but moreso oil starvation. Oil changes were fine except for the one time where 20K was travelled between oil changes, so I am sure this was a contributor.

    I have already sorted the loose air filter issue and removed the noise deadening material that rubs on important parts eventually.. The very clattery diesel noise (much louder than normal) definitely went away with tightening of the injector mounts.

    Here is the post from the C4 Owners forum:


    Turbo failure associated with blocked oil feed on diesels are NOT caused by oil change issues. They are caused by leaking injector seals. These allow hot gas into the cam box and this carbonised the oil. These hard particles will block the turbo oil feed filter and the main sump strainer. A quick check for an impending problem can be done by removing the brake servo pump and checking its oil strainer. Any bits of carbon and you have a problem.

    Often the injectors come loose over time and the problem can be cured by just tightening the bolts. Ford (same engine) recommend checking these bolts at certain intervals. Citroen don't!

    If you don't cure the cause, your new turbo won't last long.


    I believe this guy is possibly right, less to do with oil changes as a cause. Oil changes are part of the problem but this to me seems to be potentially the main cause of the carbon build up in the oil. All the other problems are then symptoms and consequences that you must then deal with.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger
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    The injectors live in tubes that are open to the atmosphere at the top of the head when the injector is removed. The usual problem with the injectors is that, the tubes being open to atmosphere, water can run down the side of them and rust them in so effectively that the factory tool is not robust enough to get them out when something like a timing chain needs replacement. The injector tubes don't open into the engine and you can (in theory) remove the injectors without touching the camshaft area, so I'm not sure where hot gasses would enter the engine. Have a look at your car and see if you can see how this could happen.

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    The injectors live in tubes that are open to the atmosphere at the top of the head when the injector is removed. The usual problem with the injectors is that, the tubes being open to atmosphere, water can run down the side of them and rust them in so effectively that the factory tool is not robust enough to get them out when something like a timing chain needs replacement. The injector tubes don't open into the engine and you can (in theory) remove the injectors without touching the camshaft area, so I'm not sure where hot gasses would enter the engine. Have a look at your car and see if you can see how this could happen.
    Yes I also fail to understand this issue. With external injector mounting, hot gasses can't get into the engine.

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    Well you guys seem to know a lot more than I. I have done all of the things that you have listed to stop my new turbo failing again. I find it interesting though that this guys post lead me to loose mountings and quietened down what had become a very noisy motor. So if that all it helped with I am still grateful :-)

  10. #10
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    Ok....Hi folks,

    Our C4 1.6HDI has has the choof choof of a leaky injector seal, and carbon crud build up around the middle 2 injectors.

    at 280,000km its the first (significant) issue we've had since new (late 2007).

    I guess The bottom copper washer seal will be eroded, so a simple tighten of the injector bolts will not do.
    BTW, has anyone else made a 7mm allen key? After 40 years mechaniccing and a few hundred allen keys..... no 7mm!

    So I looked up a couple of you tubes.... some use a slide hammer to pull the injector out, some have a very expensive looking hydraulic puller kit....

    Has anyone had success or failure using a slide hammer?

    Getting dark now, so I'll have a couple of beers and tackle it in the morning.

    Bob

  11. #11
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    Have you seen http://www.idfmoteurs.com/pdf/proced...,4_1,6_HDI.pdf. Last paragraph- if there's a leaking injector, solve the problem before continuing.

    Unfortunately no detail about the injector solution in this document, but the mechanic has been warned. I imagine there is an Anglais somewhere.


    PS I have a 7mm picked up from Aldi. Bunnings have them too.
    Last edited by seasink; 12th January 2016 at 10:08 PM. Reason: ps

  12. #12
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    Bob, what is the state of the oil in your car with the loose injectors? Does it look normal given the distance since the last change?

    If you use a slide hammer, you may need to remove the bonnet for easier access. You need to be a little inventive about how to grip the injector and not damage it. The factory tool was a two armed puller and it wasn't up to the job if the injector had rusted in. Hence the different solutions to skinning the same cat!

    I do recall seeing a hard black goo that looked like melted plastic around a couple of injectors on top of the head in a C4 with a ruined turbo and cooked engine. However, oil changes had been skipped and the oil was black, low and very sticky. Escaping hot gases might make the top of the engine a little hotter than intended, but soot would block eventually that gas escape route. The oil would be in contact with hot areas of metal when passing through the turbocharger as there is a high volume of hot gases always passing by there and there is no water cooling as on some cars. The sump capacity isn't very large and the change from the yellow to orange dipstick recalibrated the level check. Seasink's document also mentions the importance of changing that dipstick.

  13. #13
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    little UFO's Pug 307 (yes I know, the shame... ) had a choofy number 1 injector a couple of weeks before Xmas. He was here doing an oil change and mentioned it. We tightened it using one of the smaller Torx bits. He drove it for a few days before they went to the UK for Xmas (with tiny UFO and Ms little UFO) and he said it was no longer choofing and the car was running fine.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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