Waterless cooling
  • Help
Results 1 to 25 of 25
  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    749

    Default Waterless cooling

    Has anyone tried the waterless cooling liquid from Liquid Intelligence?
    might be better than water?

    Advertisement


    Adrian

    _________________

    Current;

    Xantia V6 Exclusive Auto 2000


    Past;

    CX25 GTI Turbo series 1 1985
    DS23 IE Pallas 5sp 1974
    CX25ie Pallas Auto 1984 Parts
    2CV 1988
    CX25ie Pallas Auto 1984

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,484

    Default

    I used their ZDDP occasionally, acid wash block cleaner and one of their glycol coolers, but stopped short at the concept of paying $200 for coolant.
    Turns out I made the right choice as the water pump seal is noisy and requires further investigation and work.
    If you are going to be doing any work on the donk, this is one product you'd want to recover.

    Jo

  3. #3
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Hobart, the other planet
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    Have had the conversation with another D owner.
    These are my observations only.
    1. When you have a leak, it is lost, just like ordinary coolant.
    2. When the thermostat fails or the system boils and fluid is lost, the cost is excessive and accessibility of a small amount of refill is doubtful, unless you bought more than you needed initially.
    3. The initial outlay equates to probably 5 or more glycol based coolant changes. Is it that hard to change coolant every couple of years? Not to mention giving yourself the opportunity to check the integrity of the system whilst empty.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    2. When the thermostat fails or the system boils and fluid is lost, the cost is excessive....
    I wonder if an engine whose coolant boils at 190C suffers more damage in a boil over situation than the engine with 100-110C boil point coolant.

    I suspect if you cooked a 190C coolant filled engine, you'd have more expenses than simply replacing the expensive coolant.

    Jo

  5. #5
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Hobart, the other planet
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    I wonder if an engine whose coolant boils at 190C suffers more damage in a boil over situation than the engine with 100-110C boil point coolant.

    I suspect if you cooked a 190C coolant filled engine, you'd have more expenses than simply replacing the expensive coolant.

    Jo
    No to the wondering, the system leak down or blow off is regulated by the pressure rating of the radiator or expansion tank cap and the total capacity of the expansion tank.

    Another consideration is that water or water with a glycol based coolant provides a better heat transfer than the waterless types.

  6. #6
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,469

    Default

    This should be the answer to the engine designers prayers, the greater the temp the greater the efficiency ( due to basic thermodynamic principles) so an operating temp of 190 would yield big gains in power and economy.As the manufaturers aren't falling over themselves to use it I would say beware.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by richo View Post
    No to the wondering, the system leak down or blow off is regulated by the pressure rating of the radiator or expansion tank cap and the total capacity of the expansion tank.

    Another consideration is that water or water with a glycol based coolant provides a better heat transfer than the waterless types.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I would say beware.
    Graham
    Beware of what???

    Wallet thinness I know about, but what problems do you foresee???


    Jo

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts driven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,571

    Default

    R12's coming out of Heidelberg had glycol filled cooling system.
    Still need to change it though

  9. #9
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,469

    Default

    If it was any good the manufacturers would be rushing to it as explained above, so there must be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Beware of what???

    Wallet thinness I know about, but what problems do you foresee???


    Jo

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    749

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    If it was any good the manufacturers would be rushing to it as explained above, so there must be a problem.
    Not true, manufacturers will stick with cheaper products and materials to ensure higher profitablity and maintain competitive sales price point. They also have an interest in faster built in obsolescence.


    Adrian

    _________________

    Current;

    Xantia V6 Exclusive Auto 2000


    Past;

    CX25 GTI Turbo series 1 1985
    DS23 IE Pallas 5sp 1974
    CX25ie Pallas Auto 1984 Parts
    2CV 1988
    CX25ie Pallas Auto 1984

  11. #11
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,469

    Default

    Not in this case apparantly the Mini runs at 108 degrees when cruising to achieve economy and emissions performance then drops back to 85 degrees when being driven hard.
    Running temperature is all important to achieve emissions targets set by governments and also to produce competitive fuel economy, the most important thing these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by IE23 View Post
    Not true, manufacturers will stick with cheaper products and materials to ensure higher profitablity and maintain competitive sales price point. They also have an interest in faster built in obsolescence.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    749

    Default

    Interesting GW, my cars seem to run around 85 degrees (once warmed up) regardless of driving conditions. Wouldn't this then be the manufacturers normal set running condition expectation of cars of my generations?
    Anyway I will ask Liquid Intelligence about the performance stats of their product.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Not in this case apparantly the Mini runs at 108 degrees when cruising to achieve economy and emissions performance then drops back to 85 degrees when being driven hard.
    Running temperature is all important to achieve emissions targets set by governments and also to produce competitive fuel economy, the most important thing these days.


    Adrian

    _________________

    Current;

    Xantia V6 Exclusive Auto 2000


    Past;

    CX25 GTI Turbo series 1 1985
    DS23 IE Pallas 5sp 1974
    CX25ie Pallas Auto 1984 Parts
    2CV 1988
    CX25ie Pallas Auto 1984

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Not in this case apparantly the Mini runs at 108 degrees when cruising to achieve economy and emissions performance then drops back to 85 degrees when being driven hard.
    Running temperature is all important to achieve emissions targets set by governments and also to produce competitive fuel economy, the most important thing these days.
    Thats very interesting , Graham.
    Just before you posted that, I was thinking how a product like LI 115 (assuming it works as described) could open the door to engine temps in the boil zone of regular coolants at atmoshpheric pressures.

    I do a mix of driving, hard hast hill climbs or light throttle cruising at 90km/h and could manualy adjust the engine temp to suit if there were improvements to be had in economy. The ECU could just tag along.
    Subsidising my excess fuel usage up hills when at cruise sounds attractive.
    Do you have any idea about how much reduction in fuel useage the Mini might see through this technique??

    Jo

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IE23 View Post
    Interesting GW, my cars seem to run around 85 degrees (once warmed up) regardless of driving conditions. Wouldn't this then be the manufacturers normal set running condition expectation of cars of my generations?
    Anyway I will ask Liquid Intelligence about the performance stats of their product.
    Hello Adrian.
    I'm not an expert at motor set up, but believe the answer to your question comes in two parts which apply to other areas of engine tuning.

    If you are running a stock motor with stock inlet and exhaust, ecu and engine oil I think it would be beyond the range of the motor to cope with a major increase in engine temp.
    Chances are the ecu would shit itself as the temp climbed, and start retarding the timing in a 'save this idiot from himself' type way.
    Thats exactly what my car's ecu would do now, as it flashed alarms all over the display.

    If however the ecu is tunable and a better grade of oil is used, I'm open to the possibility that by using an electric water pump set up to control coolant temp, gains in performance/economy can be seen without destroying the motor.

    Jo

  15. #15
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,469

    Default

    I saw the information on another forum, I guess the Peugeot version of this engine may be set up the same way?
    Could be worth doing a search to find out more details.
    Graham
    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Hello Adrian.
    I'm not an expert at motor set up, but believe the answer to your question comes in two parts which apply to other areas of engine tuning.

    If you are running a stock motor with stock inlet and exhaust, ecu and engine oil I think it would be beyond the range of the motor to cope with a major increase in engine temp.
    Chances are the ecu would shit itself as the temp climbed, and start retarding the timing in a 'save this idiot from himself' type way.
    Thats exactly what my car's ecu would do now, as it flashed alarms all over the display.

    If however the ecu is tunable and a better grade of oil is used, I'm open to the possibility that by using an electric water pump set up to control coolant temp, gains in performance/economy can be seen without destroying the motor.

    Jo

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! IE23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    749

    Default

    How many litres of water is required in a cx cooling system?


    Adrian

    _________________

    Current;

    Xantia V6 Exclusive Auto 2000


    Past;

    CX25 GTI Turbo series 1 1985
    DS23 IE Pallas 5sp 1974
    CX25ie Pallas Auto 1984 Parts
    2CV 1988
    CX25ie Pallas Auto 1984

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I saw the information on another forum, I guess the Peugeot version of this engine may be set up the same way?
    Could be worth doing a search to find out more details.
    Graham
    I looked up 'mini coolant temp' and got a whole lot of whiners complaining about not having a temp gauge.

    I'm not surprised they dont have a temp gauge, the owners would be crapping themselves, and taking their cars back to the dealers complaining something is wrong.

    How many litres of water is required in a cx cooling system?
    Is this a trick question, I thought you would be using waterless coolant??

    I'll be guessing more than one tin and way less than two tins of LI 115.
    Would be nice if they sold 6L tins.

    Jo

  18. #18
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    North Parramatta
    Posts
    4,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I saw the information on another forum, I guess the Peugeot version of this engine may be set up the same way?
    Could be worth doing a search to find out more details.
    Graham
    Yep - essentially the same engine and the same on-demand electric water pump. It uses a little electric ram and a friction wheel to operate off the crank pulley when required, so no belt. It also has a flow-controlled oil pump, though this is chain driven.

    The temp gauge itself never moves, once it's at its "normal" spot, in my DS3 and 207.
    Regards,

    Simon

    2018 308 GTi 2011 DS3 DSport
    ----
    2014 208 GTi 2007 207 GTi 2004 206 GTi180 2000 206 GTi 1995 306 XT

    www.peugeotclub.asn.au

  19. #19
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,469

    Default

    I think its the thermostat that changes in the Mini engine, although obviously the water pump would be involved.
    Friction drive from the crank pulley doesn't sound good.


    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206 View Post
    Yep - essentially the same engine and the same on-demand electric water pump. It uses a little electric ram and a friction wheel to operate off the crank pulley when required, so no belt. It also has a flow-controlled oil pump, though this is chain driven.

    The temp gauge itself never moves, once it's at its "normal" spot, in my DS3 and 207.

  20. #20
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Romsey, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    4,904

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IE23 View Post
    Has anyone tried the waterless cooling liquid from Liquid Intelligence?
    might be better than water?
    Can I ask a really dumb question?

    Whats wrong with water anyway?

    They've been using it in car engines for over a hundred years and if it aint broken why fix it.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    frenchconnect@bigpond.com

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

  21. #21
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,469

    Default

    As I said there is the possiibility of running engines at higher temps, thus achieving big gains, it all comes down to the basic thermodynamic equations.
    Don't know whether I'd want a water pump driven by a friction drive from the crank pully though, bit like electric handbrakes with motors or mirrors that fold back when you stop the car, expensive disasters waiting to happen.

    The Davies Craig electric water pump sounds like a much better idea.

    Graham


    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Can I ask a really dumb question?

    Whats wrong with water anyway?

    They've been using it in car engines for over a hundred years and if it aint broken why fix it.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Can I ask a really dumb question?

    Whats wrong with water anyway?
    It is corrosive and the operating temp of an engine is too close to the boil point where its (water) cooling properties fall short.


    Jo

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dandenong Vic
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    As I said there is the possiibility of running engines at higher temps, thus achieving big gains, it all comes down to the basic thermodynamic equations.
    Don't know whether I'd want a water pump driven by a friction drive from the crank pully though, bit like electric handbrakes with motors or mirrors that fold back when you stop the car, expensive disasters waiting to happen.

    The Davies Craig electric water pump sounds like a much better idea.

    Graham
    The problem I can see is that the pump (That I'm aware of) is an 'all or nothing' type ie full on or nothing. This could give rise to hot shots if the coolant flow isn't continuos, massive problem with a rotary engine that has a very hot combustion side. If the flow was of a variable speed to keep the temperature in range then it 'should' work. This would work a treat with a an idle shut down/heat soak program so when its shut down thermo-spyhon isn't the only post match cooling.
    As an aside; Many years ago John Dymond of Penrite said at a PCCV meeting that, " Race engines in Formula cars are set up to run at 105C coolant and 110-115C oil." This was back in the day of limited access synthetic oils and pretty much straight water.....modern boffin's have now made the liquids available to push thee edge of what is possible in an Otto cycle engine.

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    8,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    The problem I can see is that the pump (That I'm aware of) is an 'all or nothing' type ie full on or nothing. This could give rise to hot shots if the coolant flow isn't continuos, massive problem with a rotary engine that has a very hot combustion side. If the flow was of a variable speed to keep the temperature in range then it 'should' work. This would work a treat with a an idle shut down/heat soak program so when its shut down thermo-spyhon isn't the only post match cooling.
    As an aside; Many years ago John Dymond of Penrite said at a PCCV meeting that, " Race engines in Formula cars are set up to run at 105C coolant and 110-115C oil." This was back in the day of limited access synthetic oils and pretty much straight water.....modern boffin's have now made the liquids available to push thee edge of what is possible in an Otto cycle engine.
    I agree with you.
    I think I have a different concept of engine cooling to most people, and certainly dont agree with the craig davies model either.
    I see two separate tasks in cooling.
    1. Primary. Pumping coolant around the block and cooling the hot metal of the motor. (making the ccolant hot)
    2. secondary. pumping coolant through the radiator. (making the coolant cold)

    At the moment my slightly odd car has a mechanical pump, at 80+km'h the thermostat is open a bees dick or less, and probably +90% of the pumped coolant is recirculating through the block. (89 degree thermostat..engine maintains 77.9C temp ) Too much airflow.

    That is a completely different scenario than having a non mechanical thermostat electrical system with periods of no coolant flow. This is totally unacceptable in my book.
    I dont care if there is no coolant flow through the radiator (in fact I dont even care if there is a radiator), but constant and powerfull flow should be seen through the block regardless of the coolant temperature.
    This is why when I finally pull my finger and do an electrical pump system, it will have at least two pumps.
    One maintaining coolant flow through the donk, and one controlling coolant flow through the radiator.
    Either that or one pump with active aero but thats another league of complexity.

    Can you imagine cooking a soup, and just letting it sit there until it gets close to the boil and then stirring like crazy for a few seconds, then stop, then stir like crazy.
    Burned soup anyone???


    Jo

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    2,806

    Default Not a dumb question !!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Can I ask a really dumb question?
    Whats wrong with water anyway?
    They've been using it in car engines for over a hundred years and if it aint broken why fix it.
    Hi,
    Seems like a smart question to me. Perhaps the answer is not entirely straight foward in this new technology obsessed world. However it may depend on what you consider the most important virtues.
    Cost. Simplicity. Efficiency. Economy. Power. Etc

    It does seem some suggested "improvements" may be theory over practicality and not worth it in my book. A 2% improvement for 50% more complication seems poor to me. Same applies for costs. This includes Waterless coolant and also probably an electric pump and definitely two

    I would ask what do the real racing cars in various catagories use. Not those who are sponsered by a specific brand of fluid, and what temperature do they run at ? EG rally cars etc that have to last a while under give and take conditions.
    Jaahn

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •