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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Gun Oil

    The guns say that good aircooled oil should have a lot of ZN and P in it , and that SM grade doesnt , what do you make of it

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    Search on ZDDP and 'flat tappets' and you find a raft of stuff about accelerated wear, but it essentially boils down to later oils like API-rated SM having much less of it to ensure a longer catalyst life. There are a few ZDDP additives sold on eBay and some of the listings provided a potted summary of the issue. I've read some motorcycles need the ZDDP levels of an SG rated oil.

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    JBN
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    One guide as to what oil your car should use is work out what oils were on the market when your car was built. In my case, with air cooled 2CV engines, I use Castrol GTX (original light grey container). Its very cheap. I change oil every 5000Kms. For the Raid car, its available all over Australia.

    I have used Mobil 1 on my town 2CV, but next time the motor is rebuilt, I'll probably go down to Castrol GTX. Mobil 1 leaks out of the bottom pushrod seals.

    The 2CV engine is easily rebuilt (ie replace cylinders/pistons/rings and cleanup the head).

    For "real" gun oil, the type is not so important, the quantity is, For chromed barrels you can get away with none, just oil the bolt etc. For military weapons, use very little. Too much and the first round will send out a puff of smoke, indicating your position to the enemy. A better strategy is none or a very light amount, tape up the flash hider and muzzle with black plastic insulation tape. This stops crap and water getting into the barrel. The first round peels off the tape, or rather the air in front of the round is compressed and blows off the tape.

    John
    Last edited by JBN; 29th January 2013 at 02:32 PM.

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renburg View Post
    The guns say that good aircooled oil should have a lot of ZN and P in it , and that SM grade doesnt , what do you make of it
    Mull this over......
    http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pd...%20GREASES.pdf

    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    That is terrific if it makes any sense to you. They don't explain that for older gearboxes (again 2CV), GL4 gearbox oils is a high as you go. GL5 and beyond will bugger your synchro.

    Remember, the auto manufacturers stipulate what they want from lubricants. The lubricant companies don't stipulate what engine requirement and gearbox requirements the auto manufacturers should stive for to be compatible with their lubricants.

    John

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    Thanks for the tip about the gearbox oil

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    By the way , what should I be running in my Gearbox , can you make a recommendation

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    That is terrific if it makes any sense to you.John


    G'day,
    none of this does, so I will go away.
    regards,
    Les W.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    That is terrific if it makes any sense to you. They don't explain that for older gearboxes (again 2CV), GL4 gearbox oils is a high as you go. GL5 and beyond will bugger your synchro.

    John
    Dont blow out an elbow patch John, I just thought the OP might be interested in ZN,P and other goodies in modern oils.




    Jo

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renburg View Post
    By the way , what should I be running in my Gearbox , can you make a recommendation
    From memory, you have a drum braked 2CV (ie pre 1980). The oils I would use (and that I use on Daffy duck):

    Engine: Castrol GTX (light grey container - Big W, about $20 for 4litres). Haynes suggest 15W-40. I add a Nulon 80,000km engine treatment (costs about $40, but will do 2 engines for 80,000kms) In my case, thats one treatment per engine rebuild. Later modern engine oils are good for later engines but not all are compatible with the rubber seals at the bottom of the pushrod tubes, so you always have oil weeping out (Mobil 1 does that to my other 2CV).

    Gearbox: Nulon SAE 80 Smooth Shift Gearbox and Transaxle oil + Nulon G70 Manual Gearbox treatment. Very hard to get API GL4 oils that are kind to the synchros. This is a good one and with the additives you get really nice gearshifts. Considering that you change gears about a 1000 times per day, its nice to do it smoothly.

    John
    Last edited by JBN; 30th January 2013 at 12:30 AM.

  11. #11
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    Thanks JBN
    I will get that

    Happy days are here again

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Dont blow out an elbow patch John, I just thought the OP might be interested in ZN,P and other goodies in modern oils.




    Jo
    Apologies. I was very clearly very wrong in thinking that.

    Jo

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    I have a question , Is the Woolies GTX 20/50 oil of SG specification ?????


    Thanks all , Stirling replies

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    JBN
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    I just had a look on the container and there is no mention of SG rating. It says in meets API SN/CF requirements.

    The selling point for me was "..this is not just an oil, its liquid engineering...", for just $20. I mean, would they lie to me?

    Changing every 5000kms, being a reputable brand and a multigrade, I think it is quite fine for a 2CV. They are not a sophisticated engine. Had you used that in a 2CV when that oil first came out, other 2CV owners would probably say you are wasting an expensive oil on this car.

    I do think Nulon products are quite good, in that teflon is attracted to shiny metal surfaces (ie worn surfaces) and bonds well, but teflon doesn't bond with itself, so a coat of teflon is only one molecule thick. For older designed engines a good multigrade of the era plus Nulon can give you all that you want. Modern turbo equipped cars have totally different requirements and should use appropriate modern oils. Diesals are also into a class of their own.

    I did use Castrol CR30 (a 30 grade diesel oil) during the 60's in a VW Beetle air cooled car, mainly because it was a high detergent oil. The VW engine was crap and I killed each engine in the 3 different VWs I had (Beetle, Kombi, Type 401). Not a good idea to place an aircooled engine at the rear out of the airstream. A boxer twin is a good design. A boxer 4 or 6 isn't. The rear cylinders are not cooled properly. Aircraft radial air cooled engines get over that by staggering the two banks of cylinders so that all cylinders are equally exposed to the airstream.

    John

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    Castrol Activ 4T Motorcycle oil
    34 $ Supercheap is SG Spec ,
    More Zinc and P than SM Spec
    Zinc is lube engineers first choice

    The 2cv is after all just a Motorcycle engine that works hard

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    Not a Citroen, but speaking of oversized motorcycle engines in cars. Castrol GTX (the original in the white bottle) was the recommended oil for the engine and gearbox of my Honda 1300, a 106 BH, 1300 cc, aircooled, front mounted east/west engine that span to 7,500 rpm. Recommended engine oil changes at 5,000km, and gearbox change at 20,000km. This engine also ran 80psi oil pressure and a dry sump, oil went from clear to black very fast!

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    All very interesting but what's with the reference to 'gun' oil??
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  18. #18
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    A few things I read on the net recently in regards to (snake) oils.

    1. Dupont who invented and licence teflon have stated that there is no gain to be had using teflon in a car's sump and that it may in fact harm the motor. They have ditanced themselves from the whole issue by not supplying their product to oil additive companies.

    That alone speaks volumes.
    There is more, like what happens when it combusts.



    2. That the primary difference between automotive and motorcyle oils is the price, up to 4x as much for basically the same product.

    I can probably dig up the test data if anyone feels it makes sense to them.



    Jo

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trading Estate View Post
    All very interesting but what's with the reference to 'gun' oil??
    The expression "gun" conjures up the image of an expert (eg gun shearer).

    It is also an abbreviation for "gunna", the armchair experts that are gunna do something if/when they get off their bums.

    It is also the generic name for a light oil used to lubricate the moving parts of a rifle/pistol/machine gun and to lightly coat the bore of the barrel to prevent it from rusting (not relevant for chromed barrels).

    The reason that this thread is on the Citroen Forum is because most Citroen owners sooner or later want a gun to shoot their car. Not to kill or injure it (its quite capable of doing that without outside interference), but more to relieve the pent up stress and anger of the owner when confronted by another example courtesy the Bureau de Bastarde.

    John
    Maybe the originater of this thread has a different reason for calling it Gun Oil.

  20. #20
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    l

    I think its a shame that oil is being tailored to protect Catalytic converters and not engines , the same underhanded practice of the oil companies buying battery technology at the university, research , level and slowing it down and stopping it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renburg View Post
    l

    I think its a shame that oil is being tailored to protect Catalytic converters and not engines , the same underhanded practice of the oil companies buying battery technology at the university, research , level and slowing it down and stopping it
    Hang on a sec, isn't it good that todays cars have a much lower pollution output than those of yesteryear???

    Not only are they more efficient, but more powerful and with greater drivability.
    On another thread I highlighted how todays povo foulcan would have acceleration figures of a super car from 1972.

    If everyone drove around in cars built to 1960's emission standards, imagine the polution and excessive fuel use.
    Non sealing petrol caps that spill fuel on corners, crank case breathers which vent onto the road just to name a few. Its amazing that the motor cyclist of those days survived with al those friction modifiers being dumped onto the road.

    What does become an issue, and one I'm moderatly aware of is using newer fluids in older cars.
    I may have been mistaken for believing that was the point of your thread.

    Lead is great for valve seat protection but not so good for the environment.
    Zink is great for last line of defence metal to metal contact protection, but no so good for catalytic converters.

    It is not a conspiracy, rather the signs of progress.
    When was the last time you heard of an engine wearing out before the rest of the car was scrapped??
    Gearboxs and brake rotors may last <80k km, but the donks still keep going to 300k km.
    Engines last longer now than they did in the 'good ol' days' in spite of not having ZDDP in their enviro spec oil or lead in their fuel.

    Read the Penrite oil link to see just how few (of their) oils actualy contain no ZDDP. Only the most modern spec 'enviro' oils.

    Jo
    Last edited by jo proffi; 31st January 2013 at 06:33 PM.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Trading Estate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    The expression "gun" conjures up the image of an expert (eg gun shearer).

    It is also an abbreviation for "gunna", the armchair experts that are gunna do something if/when they get off their bums.

    It is also the generic name for a light oil used to lubricate the moving parts of a rifle/pistol/machine gun and to lightly coat the bore of the barrel to prevent it from rusting (not relevant for chromed barrels).

    The reason that this thread is on the Citroen Forum is because most Citroen owners sooner or later want a gun to shoot their car. Not to kill or injure it (its quite capable of doing that without outside interference), but more to relieve the pent up stress and anger of the owner when confronted by another example courtesy the Bureau de Bastarde.

    John
    Maybe the originater of this thread has a different reason for calling it Gun Oil.
    Good answer and I think you cracked it !
    I especially like explanation 1 and 4
    thanks!!
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  23. #23
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    I put your mix in my Gearbox JBN and will drive it to work for say a month , I saw the SG grade oil in Supercheap at special at 33$ , so thats my next oil change , happy days are here again

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