xsara al4 auto , is it worth fixing?
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default xsara al4 auto , is it worth fixing?

    i have a 2004 xsara 2l petrol auto with 80k on the clock, and the auto has gone to crap, hard shifting, slaming into limp mode, slipping etc, spoke to a few transmission places about rebiuld and repairs, getting quotes from $2500 for a valve body replacement to $5k for a complete overhaul.

    is it really worth fixing when i only paid $5k for the car?

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Haven't you answered your own question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigo_s View Post
    i have a 2004 xsara 2l petrol auto with 80k on the clock, and the auto has gone to crap, hard shifting, slaming into limp mode, slipping etc, spoke to a few transmission places about rebiuld and repairs, getting quotes from $2500 for a valve body replacement to $5k for a complete overhaul.

    is it really worth fixing when i only paid $5k for the car?
    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Haven't you answered your own question?
    Not necessarily Rob,

    The AL4 has a poor reputation as a troublesome box, but there are many many more in good service than those that have become catastrophic failures.

    We own a '02 C5 HDi that touch wood has performed faultlessly for over 10 years with one fluid change in that time, (solenoids were replaced within 6 months of our ownership under warranty) sadly the car gets mostly city use which is considered unkind to any auto, so not a bad run to date.

    As to whether this one is worth fixing really depends on a correct diagnosis, Has anyone checked the condition of the oil? This will usually give tell tale signs of how extensive the problem might be.

    Changing both solenoids may not be required, but whilst fitting a new solenoid is not a difficult job it does require a dealer to update software. It is possible that an oil change alone may improve things <$100.00, or one new solenoid and software update plus an oil change has the car back on the road for around $1000.00.

    Selling a car with a faulty gearbox will yield next to nothing, having the car diagnosed by a competent service centre with the right equipment and ability to perform software updates could see the car performing reliably for many years to come.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Not necessarily Rob,

    The AL4 has a poor reputation as a troublesome box, but there are many many more in good service than those that have become catastrophic failures.

    We own a '02 C5 HDi that touch wood has performed faultlessly for over 10 years with one fluid change in that time, (solenoids were replaced within 6 months of our ownership under warranty) sadly the car gets mostly city use which is considered unkind to any auto, so not a bad run to date.

    As to whether this one is worth fixing really depends on a correct diagnosis, Has anyone checked the condition of the oil? This will usually give tell tale signs of how extensive the problem might be.

    Changing both solenoids may not be required, but whilst fitting a new solenoid is not a difficult job it does require a dealer to update software. It is possible that an oil change alone may improve things <$100.00, or one new solenoid and software update plus an oil change has the car back on the road for around $1000.00.

    Selling a car with a faulty gearbox will yield next to nothing, having the car diagnosed by a competent service centre with the right equipment and ability to perform software updates could see the car performing reliably for many years to come.

    Cheers
    Chris
    Point taken GB.

    I guess I'm mindful of the money and hassle Haakon went through with his AL4. Even the main casting was replaced, the valve bodies and everything in between and all work done experienced Auto Trans re-builders, fortunately much was under warranty.

    So what is the outcome now? Well it certainly ain't fixed and Haakon looking to do a manual conversion!

    Unfortunately Haakon's experience is not one off and many attempts to repair seem to less that 100% successful.

    So, although terse, I still have a gut feeling my advice is sound to a person who needs the car as transport and doesn't want to/ isn't able to remove and refit auto trans to reduce the costs.

    There seems to two kinds of AL4 trans. Those that stay working and those that don't.

    When a repair approaches 50% of the car's value and has a 3month warranty at best one has to question the economics. I'd rather be accused of "telling it how it is" than "guilding the lily".

    Unfortunately the AL4 has proven to the scurge of Renault and Peugeot vehicles.

    I wonder if anyone has an AL4 reconditioned and had it perform like new for an extended period?

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    I wonder if anyone has an AL4 reconditioned and had it perform like new for an extended period?
    I think I might have had such a beast when i took over ownership of my old goon.
    It performed faultlessly for me, then i sold it and it died.


    Anyway, back the original question.......Short answer.....NO.


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    Quote Originally Posted by craigo_s View Post
    i have a 2004 xsara 2l petrol auto with 80k on the clock, and the auto has gone to crap, hard shifting, slaming into limp mode, slipping etc, spoke to a few transmission places about rebiuld and repairs, getting quotes from $2500 for a valve body replacement to $5k for a complete overhaul.

    is it really worth fixing when i only paid $5k for the car?
    Your the only one who can answer that question, not us.
    Its what its worth to you thats the question.

    Ok you paid 5 for it and it's going to cost 5 to fix so the cars worth nothing. If you were to sell it to us we'd pay scrap value only for (about 200 bucks).

    But if you fix it you'd have a good reliable car for years to come. You could pay 10K for another car and still have the auto pack up.

    So your question is it worth fixing the answer is no but its worth it to you to fix it, sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you dont.
    David Cavanagh

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Point taken GB.

    When a repair approaches 50% of the car's value and has a 3month warranty at best one has to question the economics. I'd rather be accused of "telling it how it is" than "guilding the lily".
    Rob,
    I hoped the salient point in my reply was 'diagnosis' by a competent service centre experienced with the AL4 the ability to read codes and perform software updates. Once you are armed with the "How it is, without guilding..." you 'can' make an informed decision.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Not necessarily Rob,

    The AL4 has a poor reputation as a troublesome box, but there are many many more in good service than those that have become catastrophic failures.

    We own a '02 C5 HDi that touch wood has performed faultlessly for over 10 years with one fluid change in that time, (solenoids were replaced within 6 months of our ownership under warranty) sadly the car gets mostly city use which is considered unkind to any auto, so not a bad run to date.

    As to whether this one is worth fixing really depends on a correct diagnosis, Has anyone checked the condition of the oil? This will usually give tell tale signs of how extensive the problem might be.

    Changing both solenoids may not be required, but whilst fitting a new solenoid is not a difficult job it does require a dealer to update software. It is possible that an oil change alone may improve things <$100.00, or one new solenoid and software update plus an oil change has the car back on the road for around $1000.00.

    Selling a car with a faulty gearbox will yield next to nothing, having the car diagnosed by a competent service centre with the right equipment and ability to perform software updates could see the car performing reliably for many years to come.

    Cheers
    Chris
    i had the car sent to a mechanic who said it was throwing pressure regulation codes, as it would go into limp mode if i accelerated onto the freeway hard to get up to speed, they changed the valves out saying was the issue, not 2 days later and the previously listed issues started, so the oil etc is fresh, where can you buy parts like reco box's etc in melbourne for these cars?

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    Craigo,
    I have done a quick Google search for the offending AL4 gearbox. There are lots of entries including the first that appeared on Google being the Citroen training document. There are many many posts about changing the original pressure regulator valve to an updated Borg Warner part and many claim the gearbox is transformed. Either way this is a "piece of string" question until a proper diagnosis is made... so perhaps Craigo you could print off the genuine training manual and go armed with that to a specialist auto transmission place. It could be that the specialist dude has already seen an AL4 !
    My local auto man was cursing a 306 cabrio for its gearbox...bloody French rubbish ... but it was a GERMAN ZF product and the AL4 is also a GERMAN product supplied by SIEMENS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigo_s View Post
    i had the car sent to a mechanic who said it was throwing pressure regulation codes, as it would go into limp mode if i accelerated onto the freeway hard to get up to speed, they changed the valves out saying was the issue, not 2 days later and the previously listed issues started, so the oil etc is fresh, where can you buy parts like reco box's etc in melbourne for these cars?
    There are many out there that can read codes but can't perform the required software updates - can you confirm the updates were performed? Sounds like you are getting to the point where you are "in for a penny in for a pound", I hope the work to date carries warranty!

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    And for my salient points (gleaned entirely from AF, I might add)

    Not too many so called experts seem to know how to fix them.

    And those who do are likely to charge a premium.

    So make a decision before commiting to many $$$$$$$$$

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    And for my salient points (gleaned entirely from AF, I might add)

    Not too many so called experts seem to know how to fix them.

    And those who do are likely to charge a premium.

    So make a decision before commiting to many $$$$$$$$$
    hahaha, that unfortunately is too true. Those that had a good reputation are now falling into that category and reputable service centres will no longer use them. Having said that we will seldom hear of the successes

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    There are many out there that can read codes but can't perform the required software updates - can you confirm the updates were performed? Sounds like you are getting to the point where you are "in for a penny in for a pound", I hope the work to date carries warranty!

    Cheers
    Chris
    the work was carried out at a peugeot dealer but there was not charge casue they couldnt fix the issue,
    Has anyone coverted these to a manual?

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigo_s View Post
    the work was carried out at a peugeot dealer but there was not charge casue they couldnt fix the issue,
    Has anyone coverted these to a manual?
    What condition is the radiator cap in????

    Jack up the radiator cap and drive a new car underneath it.

    Jo

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    I would say it's not worth converting it to a manual as you can just buy a running manual for a few thousand. You'd need a dealer to configure the electronics to tell the car it's now a manual. I know thre are wiring issues with the C5 that make a conversion difficult, but maybe not with the Xsara.

    Given the age of the Xsara, it's probably got the most recent software in the ECU, but it's certainly worth checking.

    A pressure regulation fault is usually due to the pressure modulation electrovalve, but there can also be problems with the multifunction / gear position switch, so you might even look at that. If it slips and the oil was burnt, then it probably needs a full overhaul. You could talk to the Melbourne transmission rebuilder A&B as thay have a lot of experience with the AL4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    I would say it's not worth converting it to a manual as you can just buy a running manual for a few thousand. You'd need a dealer to configure the electronics to tell the car it's now a manual. I know thre are wiring issues with the C5 that make a conversion difficult, but maybe not with the Xsara.

    Given the age of the Xsara, it's probably got the most recent software in the ECU, but it's certainly worth checking.

    A pressure regulation fault is usually due to the pressure modulation electrovalve, but there can also be problems with the multifunction / gear position switch, so you might even look at that. If it slips and the oil was burnt, then it probably needs a full overhaul. You could talk to the Melbourne transmission rebuilder A&B as thay have a lot of experience with the AL4.
    Converting to manual the easy way, $1000.00 Auction has 2 days to run with no bids. . .

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Citroen-X...item2ec53b11af

    This is quite an interesting read related to Craig's problem.

    http://ahw308.blogspot.com.au/2009/0...-pressure.html

    AL4 Automatic Transmission - Pressure Regulation Fault
    I used to have a problem with my earlier Peugeot [not 308] AL4-Transmission. It was under warranty, so it didn't incur any direct cost to me except time, fuel and toll. But I learned quite a lot in return at no cost for consultation. I just want to share my own experience on the symptoms so that everyone will take immediate action before it is too late and start to make lots of noise in the AutoForum...

    Symptoms
    Flashing of the "Snow" or/and "Sports" light then the transmission went into the downgraded mode. In this mode the transmission was locked in third gear to enable to continue the operation of the vehicle following by a loss of power. The downgraded mode sometimes preceded by some very harsh [jerking] shifts. However after stopping and restarting the engine, the transmission would usually return to normal operation.

    Most of the time the problem appears at unpredictable intervals. Some incidences were on a daily basis, sometimes may have weeks of trouble free operation between incidents.
    What was logged in the ECU?
    At SC I was told the following fault code was logged in the transmission ECU: "Intermittent fault. Pressure regulation fault, recommendation/variation"


    Cause
    Being a technical person I usually ask for the explanation. I was told the pressure regulation fault code was triggered when the ECU senses a difference between the calculated pressure and the actual line pressure in the transmission. The pressure difference was caused by internal leakage. Internal leaks could be caused by mechanical wear, a leak between valve body and transmission casing, incorrect adjustment of the manual valve index spring.

    The most common cause however is the pressure regulation solenoid valve.

    Diagnosis
    The diagnosis was not straightforward, several operations were required to eliminate possibilities.
    Transmission fluid
    ATF level was checked in the transmission. [Note: Low or high fluid levels are equally harmful]
    ATF was placed in a clean container for examination.

    The transmission didn't need to be overhauled or replaced because the fluid sample was normal like fresh ATF, i.e transparent. Fluid drained from a transmission that has been in operation for some time is usually dark in colour and lacks transparency, this is acceptable and not necessarily an indication of an internal fault. Caution was exercised with the fluid assessment.
    Pressure sensor
    With help of the diagnostic computer the transmission line pressure was checked.
    The following parameters were observed.
    At idle in N around 2.6 bars.
    At idle in D around 3 bars.
    Under full load 2200 rpm: 11.5 bars.
    Since there was change in pressures, no need to test the sensor and sensor supply.

    Note: A faulty sensor maintain constant pressure of 6,5 bars. This would also mean that the transmission would be in Limp Home Mode and that the fault is permanent. Since the problem usually was intermittent the pressure readings would check out OK most of the time. Since no other problems have been found so far, diagnose continued...
    Solenoid Valves
    Pressure regulation valve and the converter lock-up valves were replaced.
    2 seals behind the valve body are correctly fitted. The seals were not replaced.
    After fitting the valve body, the selector index spring was adjusted
    The multi-function switch was also adjusted.
    Before fitting the pan , the 2 magnets presence was assured.
    ATF was refilled and adjusted the level.
    The transmission ECU software was updated for the new solenoid valve because the older software versions are not compatible with the new Borg Warner valves.

    The operations outlined above resolved the pressure regulation problem.

    If the problem couldn't be resolved Valve-body probably need to be replaced. Worse case, the whole Transmission required overhaul or replacement.

    Important reminders to observe
    Only use genuine Peugeot ATF.
    The fluid level must be correct.
    The correct adjustment of the manual valve index spring is very important.
    Adjust the multi-function switch after the valve adjustment.
    Cleanliness is absolutely essential when working on the transmission.


    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    yea i did find that online, does anyone know where to get a hard copy of a service manual? if its just a case of replacing sensors and checking the valvebody is installed correctly i could do it myself if i know where to look , because i dont know the car (its the wifes) i dont work on it myself, mechanical work isnt an issue as i usally do all my own work ie servicing , engine builds etc but i have always driven V8's and 4wd's

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigo_s View Post
    yea i did find that online, does anyone know where to get a hard copy of a service manual? if its just a case of replacing sensors and checking the valvebody is installed correctly i could do it myself if i know where to look , because i dont know the car (its the wifes) i dont work on it myself, mechanical work isnt an issue as i usally do all my own work ie servicing , engine builds etc but i have always driven V8's and 4wd's
    Hi Craig,
    Reading the above blog text I posted, I get the idea there is a serious requirement for the correct tools to measure and diagnose the AL4
    In that blog link there is a reply with a link to this PDF >> http://www.kit-group.ru/sections/AL4%20Transmission.pdf << Not exactly what you will need but some good info and diagrams.
    Means very little to me other than some things are better left to trained technicians with access to tools and the software readers and updates.

    [Disclaimer regarding the PDF link, I'm very wary of downloads from sites ending with .ru - but this link passed all my virus checks etc.]

    Edit: This link is a little more frightening, much more detailed
    Courtesy of French Car Forum http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/foru...p?f=10&t=42353

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/109578227/A...0manual%20.pdf

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    i guess they like to make things difficult

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigo_s View Post
    i guess they like to make things difficult
    When all is working as it should it is a pretty clever bit of kit, I love the down changes and for the most part these happen just when you would be reaching for the shift on a manual, it will hold a lower gear on long downward slopes, where I see lesser autos using their brakes to slow. I seldom drive ours (C5) and find it is quick to learn my driving style relative to my wife's. So complex yes, but possibly no more so than the current crop of boxes that have replaced it.

    One thing worth a mention in this thread, David S has pointed this out in several threads relating to this box - the AL4 hates left foot braking, it can send the box into a spin of confusion. Tactfully ask your wife if she is prone to do this, it may be a contributing factor?

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    One thing worth a mention in this thread, David S has pointed this out in several threads relating to this box - the AL4 hates left foot braking, it can send the box into a spin of confusion. Tactfully ask your wife if she is prone to do this, it may be a contributing factor?

    Cheers
    Chris
    Or more specificly, left foot braking whilst the right foot is accelerating.
    I see it all the time, brake lights on up hill.

    My goon did the gearbox equivalent to a yodel at light load 40km/h when the brake switch was out of alignment .


    Jo

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    i know she doesnt left foot brake, when the car was running properly it was a great little car very responsive and i liked the way it shifted, took it through some winding roads at speed in sport mode and it was great, always in the gear i wanted

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    My AL4 is fine in itself, but the car has broader electrical quirks with ecu etc that I can't be arsed with...

    3 rebuilds in a row with no change in the symptoms just says they're no good at the multiplexed electrics. I've mucked with changing ecus etc that alters the symptoms, so certain the fault is not inherently in the transmission.

    Yes it can be converted to manual, I'll probably post pictures and hopefully news of a succesful job in a month or so. Xsara manual linkages and pedals and subframe, 206GTi gearbox, cable clutch conversion parts from a UK spec Berlingo.

    I'll be selling the 8000km old AL4 for a lot less your rebuild quote.

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    Hi-Seems like Dave has not got any good AL4's in stock to offer.

    Pity about that.

    Maybe one will arrive on the back of a truck tomorrow.

    One can only live in hope.

    Cheers,

    Pekay.

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