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Thread: Repowering a CX

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! andrewj's Avatar
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    Default Repowering a CX

    Driving around over Christmas / New Year in the CX, I couldníthelp but notice just how bad the fuel consumption is.
    Why not transplant a modern, single rail turbo diesel?
    Presumably a gearbox/engine combination from a modern front wheeldrive would be logical, with customer drive shafts and engine mounts formingthe interface between the old and the new.
    A C4 is almost an identical weight to a CX sedan (1290 vs1300). So a 1600HDI should give adequate power and torque. Hopefully a smallerdonor vehicle would also maximize clearances in the engine bay.
    Fuel consumption would improve from around 12-15l/100kmshould improve to 4-6l/100km
    Whatís the catch?


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    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

  2. #2
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Andrew, what kind of fuel consumption are you getting from your CX IE auto? Having owned two, I used to get 15l/100km at best. I am a self-confessed lead-foot or more politely, an affirmative driver.

    I've heard and read about all manner of possible conversions: 20B Rotary, C114 Maserati (from the SM & Merak which was proposed among many other engine possibilities before doing what they did with the D and simply threw in what Shane calls the "tractor motor") and local folklore has it that there's a CX around Brisbane with a Skyline engine. All of these possibilities would certainly up the power and fuel consumption.
    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    15l/100

    604's do better than that in bad tune

    if i was ever silly enough to own another CX i'd look at sticking a TD out of a 405 in one

    simple and economical
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  4. #4
    UFO
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    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
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    IIRC, there was talk of a CX at the Cit In in Renmark many years ago that had a Nissan engine in it.

    The biggest challenge would be fitting the hydraulic pump etc - I suppose.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger
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    You may be better off with a 2.0HDi set up for a manual gearbox and taken from some Pug. Getting a working engine manangement system would be the likely challenge. Its also used in other things like a Mondeo, so a Ford donor may even be easier to work with.

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    Fellow Frogger! deesse's Avatar
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    just leave it be but drive a little less. Like the easiest way to lose weight - eat less rather than excercise more
    cheers Tony

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    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
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    The catch?
    The amount of money spent, (not to mention the time) would exceed any return in fuel saving.
    If fuel consumption is a major priority, you're enjoying the wrong car

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    get a petrol turbo one ....... the fuel economy is a lot better if you can keep your foot off the "go" pedal. Especially compared to the slugomatics. I think most CX's that get anything remotely close to 15L/100km must be in a really poor state of tune (even if they seem to run ok) and are leaving trails of fuel down the road from a leaky tank and leaky brass fitting pushed into the carby.

    I reckon the best would be the 2litre HDi from a 407 ................... That way you'd get the 6spd manual gearbox with it I'll give it a crack if a tree of something destroys the 407 here .... I'd just need to find a good CX wagon bodyshell.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Tadpole CX Series 3's Avatar
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    I intend to drop in a Tesla drivetrain to create an electric rocketship. This is one of projects I'm looking forward to doing after I "retire" in about 5-10 years.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    get a petrol turbo one ....... the fuel economy is a lot better if you can keep your foot off the "go" pedal. Especially compared to the slugomatics. I think most CX's that get anything remotely close to 15L/100km must be in a really poor state of tune (even if they seem to run ok) and are leaving trails of fuel down the road from a leaky tank and leaky brass fitting pushed into the carby.

    I reckon the best would be the 2litre HDi from a 407 ................... That way you'd get the 6spd manual gearbox with it I'll give it a crack if a tree of something destroys the 407 here .... I'd just need to find a good CX wagon bodyshell.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    i'd still go the 405 diesel engine

    less computer trickery involved and a more conventional engine to work on and around and still return great economy
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Fingers's Avatar
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    Or the obvious... a CX diesel??

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    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Repowering a CX

    Cx had the best diesel at the time. Maybe that would be the answer.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
    CX Register

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    Fellow Frogger! Balki's Avatar
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    Have had a good look at putting a 406 hdi and manual in a cx but encountered a few issue that make it a lot of work
    i have a cx wreck and a 406 wreck side by side to compare

    the biggest problem is the chassis cross member in the cx, it sit up high and across the top of the differential and the engine leans forward from under it, the 406 has the engine leaning backwards ( this could be tilted but oil supply and oil drainage need to be adressed) and the gearbox would need to remain level, also the 406 engine has the turbo etc at the rear right where the cross member is, i also measured the distance between the drive shaft and crank shaft on both engines and boxs and the cx has about 120mm larger gap making the 406 box very hard to get the drive shaft lined up straight which is crucial is you dont like torque steer. the only option in regard to fitting a hdi would be grafting it to the cx box and finding a cx diesel final drive to get the ratios right and then getting the computer to work with the engine outside of the 406
    everything can be done but at what cost

    my cx does 10.5 ks per litre which i didnt think was to bad for a heavy car with a vintage tractor motor

  14. #14
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Feathering the accelerator may still be the cheapest option going.
    1972 SM
    1989 BX 16 Valve

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    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    '80 CX Cmatic carby. Best, 40 mpg. Worst, 14. average, 26mpg (about 11.5 l/100 km) carby manual we were running averaged 32 mpg over 100,000 miles.

    I have also looked at fitting the 405 SRDT, by re-doing the turbo installation (move to front) and using a Xantia belt drive pump, however the next CX projects are both 25 IE's which give good mileage if driven appropriately. Being in the country we can use the car's inertia and low drag. Can't do this driving in traffic.

    The webber carbs can have problems, from the little plugs in the various drillings moving around. Had two do this so they couldn't be tuned to idle any more. This dropped the economy from 32 to 26 in the manual car for a few weeks until we fitted another carby.

    There isn't an issue converting a carbie to injection with megasquirt, adaptronics etc. as the cylinder heads are the same for carbie and IE, just need to hunt up a suitable manifold, plenum & throttle body. Any jap plenum should work (pintara, magna etc) and get a plate and stubs made up to match the head if you can't find a Citroen one.

    The basic engine is about the best engineered I've seen (better than mercs and BMW) put a warmer cam and an ECU with knock sensing and a five wire O2 sensor and you'll get the sort of efficiency you'ld expect from a modern car of the same weight without all the hassles of re-powering it.

    Bruce.

    Best of luck.
    Last edited by Bruce Llewellyn; 19th January 2013 at 11:30 PM.

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donat View Post
    Feathering the accelerator may still be the cheapest option going.
    I agree! When I realised how much fuel our CX used I just stopped thinking about it. Cheap and easy solution.

    Every now and again I do think Megasquirt though. The thought of serious surgery with a different power train was for me in the "nice cuppa and a Bex and a lie down" territory.
    JohnW

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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    I think I'd be purchasing a second economical car for city use and saving the CX for leisurely country cruising. They are all getting a little long in the tooth for regular everyday transport and commuting. The are also at the stage of ''naisance'' to classic status and deserve preservation! Re engining appears to me to be sacrilege.
    Cheers Gerry

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger
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    I can't see an economic argument that can justify the work involved. If you want to do it or need to change the fuel source, fair enough, but otherwise, it's really a non-argument. Keep the CX, use it less and buy a used Xantia/C3/C4/C5 HDi, which can now offer very good value for money. To make a transplanted drivetrain work as well as it did in a late model donor vehicle, you are going to have to invest more time and money in the management system than anticipated, particularly with an automatic. Using a drivetrain taken from something earlier without the complex electronics would make the idea a much more manageable proposition.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! rubyalpine's Avatar
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    Complex conversions usually (always) end up far more costly than originally estimated. If you did end up with better fuel efficiency, it will probably take about ten years to re-coup the cost of the conversion.
    My suggestion: Fit a double cone pod filter, freeflow exhaust, pump up the tyres a bit harder and drive conservatively!

    Henry

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    While we're on the subject of fuel, what's the Birotor like on consumption, Andrew?

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donat View Post
    While we're on the subject of fuel, what's the Birotor like on consumption, Andrew?
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
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    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Fellow Frogger! ARCHRIVAL's Avatar
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    I look at the CX then at the Cadillac and think 300kw of all meaty american goodness and a motor that is 20 kilo lighter maybe after the next hail storm
    Also thinking would bolting the T2 turbo on to a 2500 ie blow up the trany straight away ?
    BX 16v 89, I Renault Floride 62, Volvo P1800 68, Aston Martin DB6 68, Daimler 250V8 68, Jaguar XJC 76, Falcon Ute XL 62, Falcon Ute XY 4WD, Jeep Grand Larado 03, Mazda 6 Wagon 05, inter 483 tractor 86, makita cordless drill CX TURBO its dented D Special 1 62 ID192000 Xantia V6 2000 Cadillac STS stolen by the princess,KANGA 720DL LOADER

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    The easiest route to better economy would be going to a mapped injection system like a modern car has. Plenty of fiddly work there but nothing impossible. Much easier than trying to replace the perfectly good motor mounted in its unique way. What could you expect, probably comparable to a Xantia so about 8.5 - 9.5 around the city if driven with restraint. Probably get into the 7s in country running.

    Or you could do as has been suggested and buy yourself an economical runabout and drive the CX a little less. That is what I have done.

    If economy is a big priority and you would still like to repower the CX why not get the drivetrain out of a Camry Hybrid. That would give the best result for all the work involved. The cutting edge nature of the drivetrain would sit well with the avant guard nature of the CX to.
    Mine

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    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! andrewj's Avatar
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    Do you remember Sir Humphries "most efficient hospital" from the yes minister show?

    A bit like that really- as it is can not move under it's own steam, fuel consumption is exceptionally low.

    When it is working it is around 13L per 100km - about the same as a CX, but much more fun

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    Or you could do as has been suggested and buy yourself an economical runabout and drive the CX a little less. That is what I have done.
    good move ... you forget how good the CX is unless you have modern crap to drive to compare too.... I suggest something like a 407 .... it'll make the CX feel brilliant in comparison

    I'm thinking of getting another car so I can have 3 cars to drive over the year on club permits (in place of one fully registered car). I'm thinking, cx turbo, ID19 and something like a V8 Range/Land rover with a 4ton tow capacity Fuel economy isn't relevant if your only using it 45days a year

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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