CX Engine Rebuild
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! laurie_lewis's Avatar
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    Default CX Engine Rebuild

    Hi all ,

    Sitting here, by myself away from home and the mind ticking over. I have been thinking about the CX motor sitting on the garage floor waiting to go back to it's home. Now the turbo has done 175,000 miles and had a few owners. So I was thinking that I should have it stripped down and checked before putting it back in.

    It is a job I would be paying for as I don't have a clue on what to do. I also make the assumption that a good engine person is a good engine person so no previous CX experience necessary.

    So two questions.

    Is it a worthwhile thing to do, and if not why? Talk me out of it

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    What parts should I order straight up so it can be reassembled if nothing found wrong. I already have a new clutch kit to go in.

    It really is a pain typing on a phone BTW so I must be in a sad state.


    Laurie

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Why don't you do a compression test.... If all the pots are close in compression, chuck it back in. the petrol turbo motors are known for being near indestructable..... I guess there all older than 25years these days though.

    Even the garret turbos seem to give little grief.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  3. #3
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Why's the motor out in the first place?

    I'm sure anyone with mechanical prowess can work on it (seeing it's out of the car); whether or not they want to do the work is another thing!
    1972 SM
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  4. #4
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    Cam follower faces might start to break up before some other parts wear, wouldn't they?
    Cam seal change???
    You'd consider the timing chain if there was any kind of rattle before as it's easy to get at now.

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    absolutely check/change clutch, rear main, camshaft carrier, spigot and cam seal while there .... regardless of rebuild ... !! Better now than 6weeks after you get it all back together

    seeya,
    Shan L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    While it is apart, make sure you carefully measure the cam shaft lobes. They wear! The state of the cam followers is often very poor --- the case hardening breaks up and erodes. This in turn abrades the tips of the cam lobes. I believe this is due to the pressure from the very strong valve springing. An old DS or ID long stroke engine ( or the TA engine for that matter) is not afflicted with this problem and seems to last forever. I went through three shafts trying to find a good one! Yes timing chains and tensioners wear and rattle and cam seals harden and leak. The cam seal is a direction specific seal. So do not use the DS one. The seal lip has little ridges on the outer face that must face the correct direction or it will leak from new. I understand that there is now also available, a double lipped seal that is very effective.
    Cheers Gerry

  7. #7
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    If you can afford it, then it sounds like getting it pulled apart and "blueprinted" will be worthwhile, even if the compression is OK (wear on camshaft and followers wont affect compression).

    Ian Inman would probably be your best bet in Armidale - but I'm sure you already knew that.

    Cheers

    Alec

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! laurie_lewis's Avatar
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    Hi Alec,

    Yes my plan was to go to Ian. Always impressed with his work.

    Blueprinting sounds expensive and I am not really sure what it would bring to an old banger. Though a few more cc's might be nice.

    Laurie

  9. #9
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    I really just meant making sure everything was within standard specifications - which I think is all the term really means.

    Given that it's a turbo (and presumably generates more heat than non-turbo engines), ensuring that oil galleries and water channels are clear could save big expense later. Presumably Ian has a big tank full of strong chemicals that he can soak the block in, which should get rid of accumulated sludge, scale etc. (makes the outside nice and clean too ).

    Cheers

    Alec
    Last edited by Armidillo; 15th January 2013 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurie_lewis View Post
    Hi Alec,

    Yes my plan was to go to Ian. Always impressed with his work.

    Blueprinting sounds expensive and I am not really sure what it would bring to an old banger. Though a few more cc's might be nice.

    Laurie
    If you need more power ( Gee's how much go do you think a CX needs ). A better option would be an aftermarket injection/AEI/boost control. You could considerably increase the boost safely and end up with a massively faster car if you used modern control to ensure there is no engine knocking

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armidillo View Post
    (wear on camshaft and followers wont affect compression).



    Cheers

    Alec
    No but it plays Merry Hell with efficient timing. Cams and followers can always be rebuilt, and possibly there can be improvements to duration, lift and overlap.
    Cheers Gerry

  12. #12
    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by donat View Post
    Why's the motor out in the first place?
    Because he is doing a full resto of the car - well maybe not as intense as Gerry's - but a huge job still.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! laurie_lewis's Avatar
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    Shane, you have to remember I learnt to drive on a cx2200 manual, and then my next CX experience is on a C-matic which I still have. I have driven a turbo 500 km with a slipping clutch. Add to that I am a grey haired rev-head (ex bike rider & ex a few other things) and perhaps there lies your answer. You can never have too much go at your foot. My experience with a CX is that they only go when driven very hard, but boy is that fun.

    Thank you for the advice. I think that a discussion with a man in Armidale, based on price, will make my mind up. The limitations with the gearbox taking the power will be a major consideration I think.

    Gerry, do you source the seals you are talking about locally or from OS. I was going to get the parts before taking the engine down.

    Please do not compare my rebuild with Gerry's. he has skill and knowledge, I have neither. I am just hoping it goes again.

    Laurie

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurie_lewis View Post
    Shane, you have to remember I learnt to drive on a cx2200 manual, and then my next CX experience is on a C-matic which I still have. I have driven a turbo 500 km with a slipping clutch. Add to that I am a grey haired rev-head (ex bike rider & ex a few other things) and perhaps there lies your answer. You can never have too much go at your foot. My experience with a CX is that they only go when driven very hard, but boy is that fun.

    Thank you for the advice. I think that a discussion with a man in Armidale, based on price, will make my mind up. The limitations with the gearbox taking the power will be a major consideration I think.

    Gerry, do you source the seals you are talking about locally or from OS. I was going to get the parts before taking the engine down.

    Please do not compare my rebuild with Gerry's. he has skill and knowledge, I have neither. I am just hoping it goes again.

    Laurie
    No worries Laurie. The old thing .... apparently chuck a bog standard turbo 2 onto a dyno and it'll be pumping out a healthy 180hp. You don't have to push them hard. the gentlest prod of the "go" pedal will have the @rse end nailed to the bump stops while your frantically looking for the next gear..... The best bit is idling around, there's heaps, plenty of torque off boost. Comparing a C-matic to your petrol turbo, is like comparing a 2cv to a CX C-matic. .... One goes, one doesn't Does this compare to the C-matic



    If you increase performance, the gearbox isn't the problem, it's the clutch. The converted ones used to twist driveshafts etc... The people that pump up the turbo usually fit the diesels crown and pinion to gain some serious top speed too (or so the story goes..... You've seen a CX driveshaft, could you imagine the power it would take to damage them).



    If you really need performance, you need to chat to Neil..... The guy that owns "CGAT" (google CGAT). I think the utube link above is it's currently guise. He's running twin injectors per cylinder and nitro ..... He has been known to drag bikes with it ... so it's seriously quick... apparently will spin the front wheels even in 3rd gear under power

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  15. #15
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurie_lewis View Post
    Please do not compare my rebuild with Gerry's. he has skill and knowledge, I have neither. I am just hoping it goes again. Laurie
    JohnW

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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurie_lewis View Post

    Gerry, do you source the seals you are talking about locally or from OS. I was going to get the parts before taking the engine down.

    Please do not compare my rebuild with Gerry's. he has skill and knowledge, I have neither. I am just hoping it goes again.

    Laurie
    Laurie I bought my seal from Bruno while he was still at Citro Motors.

    And as to the second statement that I have quoted from you, --------- Knowledge and skill are gained by persuing your aims. You are doing this admirably!
    Cheers Gerry

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! John P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laurie_lewis View Post
    Gerry, do you source the seals you are talking about locally or from OS. I was going to get the parts before taking the engine down.
    Laurie
    Laurie, CX Basis in Germany is an excellent source of CX parts. They are very professional, though Bundespost seems slow.
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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! laurie_lewis's Avatar
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    Yes I thought CX-Basis would be the place. Just want to do 1 order to minimise postage. Just got a package from them before Christmas but didn't think of the other bits.

    My wife asked me today if the car will come with Premium NRMA roadside assistance. You know, accommodation, hire car and towing in case of breakdown. A real vote of confidence.

    Now is it best to seek permission prior to engine rebuild or seek forgiveness after? Either way organising it when I get home Monday.

    Shane, I think it will have enough get up and go.

    Laurie

  19. #19
    UFO
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    Get the premium coverage. It's bloody worth it regardless!
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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