Sphere identification
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 48
  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default Sphere identification

    Hi Guys,

    I'm trying to setup a set of spheres for a '75 DS23ie and a '63 ID19 ... It's got me scratching my head for sure. Now there is 6 removable valve spheres there, the ones without an sphere extender (ie: from the rear axle) have 59 stamped into the filler plug ( sigh .... so it "appears" front spheres are fitted to the back). However two of the front spheres are stamed "29" on the filler plug. It gets more fun..... There is maybe 8spheres there with fixed valves. They all appear to be front How do I tell which spheres are which. I guess the removable valve ones arent' such a big deal. I'll just search the manuals and find how to shim them as front/rear valves (did anyone bookmark the link someone posted here a couple of year back on DS valves?). The fixed valve spheres surely can't all be front. Is the centre hole in the valve a guide to where it belongs

    I've also found 2 of the brake fluid spheres still have an intact membrane. So they maybe usable to someone that's stuck with dead brake fluid spheres (they may of course sh!t themselves 5minutes after being fitted to a car ... Only one way to find out .... but I don't have a brake fluid car here to test on ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.

    Advertisement
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  2. #2
    VIP Sponsor richo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Hobart, the other planet
    Posts
    1,445

    Default

    Few things.
    Removable damper spheres
    1. No sphere on a D ever had 29 marked on the filler top from the factory. 26,35,40,59 and 65.
    2. Damper valve assemblies are interchangeable. Front and rear are different stacks and condition is paramount for performance, as well as condition
    3. Workshop manual #518 is your friend, look in the sticky, I think Shane started it

    Fixed damper spheres
    1. Damper by pass holes differ in diameter. You will need to measure accurately.
    2. Shim stacks differ, according to type.
    3. Tony Jacksons site is your friend, see the sticky. I think Shane started the thread
    4. Many people didn't keep rear spheres, too lazy to remove them from the rear.

    Performance and result is dictated by a number of factors.
    Last edited by richo; 8th December 2012 at 08:48 PM.

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default

    I'll take a look at tony's site. A lot of the folders were empty when I checked earlier.

    Woops, I meant to type 26 is stamped into the filler plugs. Yeah ... I think some certain levistons must have only bothered collecting the front spheres from cars ... the rears being burried in the grass under dead cars I'll drag my DS21 forward so I can get under it and see what is under the back of that. We may end up with the removable valve spheres all setup as rears...... I've gassed some fronts up, but I'm back to 5 with removable valves now 'cos ones leaky since I stuck 59bar into it.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Symar/ca/usa
    Posts
    607

    Default

    Shane,

    Just to add what Richo mentioned.

    Fix damper spheres

    Bypass hole for D fronts is 1.80mm in dia. Rear is 1.60mm. Additionally the rear bypass will have a small machined collar inside the main opening. The front damper also has an additional small shim visible on the outermost side of the shim stack. The D sedan rears lack the extra small diameter shim. Safari's rears have an extra small shim. So they can be confused with a front if one is not a bit careful.

    There were two types of shock bodies for the replaceable units. The later version (introduction around 1963) has a 2.00 mm bypass hole drilled in the outer circumference of the shock body. The earlier version used a small diameter 0.03mm shim to space the central portion of the actual control shims away from the face of the shock body. The bypass hole is what controls damping of small rapid wheel movement.

    The nuts holding the control shims in place also vary - both in placement (front/rear) and in generation. The basic difference between them is degree of curvature from the center to edge. Early nuts allowed for a greater 'gap' between the nut face and shock body - allowing for easier flow of fluid - less restriction. Nuts for the compression side of fluid flow were the same front and rear. Nuts for the rebound side of fluid flow were the same as the compression side for the fronts and different for the rears. Safari rears were of a different configuration than sedan rears.

    Steve

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default

    Thanks Steve,

    yeah I did find this .... I'll need to find a copy of the early manual richo suggests.... This is what I found in 814.... I want soft and squishy so I'll use the early brake fluid valves

    Sphere identification-sphere_valves.jpgSphere identification-damper.jpg





    You know ...... It wasn't me not being able to spot the differences.... Not a single bloody sphere there was a rear, I've pulled them off the back of my DS21 and they are obviously rears. the differences are the same as the piccie above.

    For later throw away spheres, this seems to be a pretty good guide

    http://cx.podolsk.ru/xm/docum/citroen_kule.pdf

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warrnambool
    Posts
    2,301

    Default

    I think 518 is there at the moment, Shane. It's my copy that was scanned.

    Roger

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Symar/ca/usa
    Posts
    607

    Default

    Shane,

    You may find that the early shim arrangement - pre 66 - may be a bit to soft for a post 66 car. The 5 main cars had more weight in the front (and overall) compared to the earlier cars. Additionally you do need to adhere quite closely to the recommended torque settings when putting those shocks together. Being off by more than 5% will affect ride characteristics.

    Steve

    Attachment 37544

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Shane,

    You may find that the early shim arrangement - pre 66 - may be a bit to soft for a post 66 car. The 5 main cars had more weight in the front (and overall) compared to the earlier cars. Additionally you do need to adhere quite closely to the recommended torque settings when putting those shocks together. Being off by more than 5% will affect ride characteristics.

    Steve

    Attachment 37544
    Perfect !!! Thanks, given I think I'll use them on the '63 ID19... the softer the better. It's not what you'd call a speedy car it sounds like we need to use the fixed damper spheres for the '75 DS23 ie, it'll be too soft with the removable damper spheres.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,025

    Default

    On the subject of sphere charging ---here is a nice little U-tube video to enjoy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W_Gf7TqrSE
    Cheers Gerry

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    On the subject of sphere charging ---here is a nice little U-tube video to enjoy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W_Gf7TqrSE
    That's the regasser I have

    Here's one to get Richo scratching his head





    Late DS front right

    Here's there rated pressure





    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sphere identification-p1160098.jpg   Sphere identification-p1160097.jpg   Sphere identification-p1160096.jpg   Sphere identification-p1160095.jpg  
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Symar/ca/usa
    Posts
    607

    Default

    Shane,

    The sphere marked "40" should have a bypass hole 1.40mm in size - if so it is an SM front. Can easily be converted to work on a D by just drilling out the bypass to 1.80mm and taking the pressure up to 59 bar.

    The one marked 35 could be a Safari rear and just stamped wrong. It appears from the photo that the filler cap has been filed. It also looks like there is the remains of a yellow painted ring. That would also indicate a Safari rear.


    As far as shim arrangement - the stacking listed for post 66 will provide a bit softer ride than the fixed shock spheres - the "heavy duty" stacking (detailed in one of the attached pdf's) gives the same damping as the fixed shocks when they came out.

    Have done a bit of experimenting with the shock stacking over the years. Currently with my 72 DS 21BVH, I have the settings in-between the normal and HD setting. Another big difference between the last style replaceable shocks and the fixed units is the size of the bypass holes. Also keep in mind when playing around with the adjustable units is to concentrate on the valving for the compression side of fluid flow.

    Steve

    Attachment 37551
    Attachment 37552

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default

    Thanks Steve,

    it'll be interesting to see what weird and wonderful valves have been setup .... I was surprised to find the two spheres above different. You picked it, they were both off the back of a CX2500 wagon. How an SM sphere came to reside there given there is probably even less SM's in Australia than there is CX wagons is beyond me I'll have to chase up my precision drill bits and try and check the center damper hole.

    When I first got my old black ID19 on the road it drove very strangly..... I never could put my finger on exactly what the problem was. There was no point to pulling the spheres off and checking them as I didn't have a tester or a gasser. It was later found to have "no valve" at all installed on one of the front spheres........ She sure was strange to drive.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 11th December 2012 at 10:28 AM.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,025

    Default

    Shane did you notice this little gadget from Tecnosir that undoes the valve with out marking it? (C-850)
    http://www.tecnosir.com/attrezzature_c850.php
    Cheers Gerry

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Shane did you notice this little gadget from Tecnosir that undoes the valve with out marking it? (C-850)
    http://www.tecnosir.com/attrezzature_c850.php
    If you have a look at there store, there 40euro.... ++ postage. I'd buy one only it will only do the one sized plug. I've have at least 4 different sized plugs here. I reckon those spheres of yours would have broken it too ..... I can't believe it took a big breakers bar with considerable force to loosen them I doubt that tool is designed for that sort of brutality

    http://www.tecnosirstore.com/

    I just googled "removing round bolt heads" and came across these:

    http://www.bt-andf.com/index.php

    Similar principle to a pipe wrench, the hard you apply turning force, the harder it grabs.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Symar/ca/usa
    Posts
    607

    Default

    Shane,

    The single part spheres went though 3 or 4 different sized and shaped sealing nuts. The reason they are so tight and need to be re-tightened with brute force is that the sealing nut also provides sealing force for the diaphragm. The diaphragm of the 'pineapple' spheres resembles a really large egg shell with the upper fourth cut off. The inner top most (about 25mm or so down from the upper edge) portion has molded ridges on the inside surface. There is a 'skull' cap with a captive nut inside the sphere that has mating ridges on it outer surface. The sealing nut engages the captive nut and pulls the 'skull' cap into contact with the inside of the diaphragm. The mechanical force provided by the sealing nut forces the outside edge of the diaphragm forcefully against the inner wall of the sphere, proving a gas tight seal.

    Steve

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,025

    Default

    What people do not realise is that it only requires moderate force to provide the seal of which you speak. Once the valve is firm, that is the point to stop tightening. The upper diaphragm acts as an ''o'' ring would act, ie; the greater the pressure of the contents ( in this case nitrogen gas) the better the seal. Therefore brute force is not necessary, just a good firm 'nip' up of the valve threads. This understanding separates Engineers from Mechanics.
    Cheers Gerry

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Symar/ca/usa
    Posts
    607

    Default

    Gerry -

    Questions - do you have a re-gassing unit? Have you ever recharged a a single part sphere and had it fail because the cap was not sufficiently tight? Have you ever compared the size and design of the single piece spheres filler cap to the two part spheres? Have you ever cut a single part unit in half and looked at how it is constructed on the inside - calculated the surface area of the clamping cap and the force needed to properly seal the diaphragm?

    The size and strength of the filler cap alone should give you an idea of how much torque it was designed to handle - and this is from a strictly engineering standpoint. Hint - it is extremely tight as the problem is not keeping the gas in..........

    From a practical view it is better to have it a bit to tight than a bit to loose - within the material's torque range - given the pressures and media that the sealing cap has to actually deal with. New units from IFHS and others are very, very tight for a good reason.

    Steve

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,025

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Gerry -

    Questions - do you have a re-gassing unit? Have you ever recharged a a single part sphere and had it fail because the cap was not sufficiently tight? Have you ever compared the size and design of the single piece spheres filler cap to the two part spheres? Have you ever cut a single part unit in half and looked at how it is constructed on the inside - calculated the surface area of the clamping cap and the force needed to properly seal the diaphragm?

    Steve
    The answer to that Steve is Yes! I have re-gassed spheres while I was working for a Citroen workshop. And have used re-gassing units of several kinds.
    No I do not have a re-gassing unit at present.
    I have examined sectioned single piece spheres. And yes there is an optimum torque for any fastening system. It should not be exceeded. This is my whole point ------ that brute force is not necessary.
    If you use brute force on a fastening you define yourself as an insensitive mechanic. If you treat the fastening with respect for its parameters then you define yourself as an engineer.
    The filler plug that we had to undo the other day was tightened to the point that the threads had deformed almost to stripping them.
    The only course of action was to abandon that sphere as being un-serviceable even though it still had a charge of gas left in it. It was a CX front requiring 75 bar of pressure. Too risky to re-use. Shane was performing the operation using his Tecnosir equipment.
    Many thanks to Shane for his generosity!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by gerrypro; 12th December 2012 at 02:05 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

  19. #19
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default

    I'm not going anywhere near this one. Some of Gerrys spheres were so tight it took a lot of force even using a 1meter long breakers bar to loosen the filler... The spheres I have recharged I've just tightened to an amount that seemed right to me. It will be intersting to see if any of them fail due to me not tightening them with a monster sized breakers bar

    I managed to charge too of the brake fluid "D" spheres to 59bar last night too.... So I may have a pair of usable brake fluid spheres here if anyone is desperate.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,025

    Default

    Here is a supplier of Spheres For a CX.
    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Suspensio...ht_2422wt_1397
    I think I want one of those CX 2400 Hatchback s ( refer to his list of applications futher down the page )
    If they know this much about Citroen-------Could You Really Trust Them?????????
    Cheers Gerry

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Here is a supplier of Spheres For a CX.
    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Suspensio...ht_2422wt_1397
    I think I want one of those CX 2400 Hatchback s ( refer to his list of applications futher down the page )
    If they know this much about Citroen-------Could You Really Trust Them?????????
    You should be ok buying from GSF, they have sold Citroen parts for many years. That's not a bad price for a new sphere delivered to your doorstep .

    seeya,
    Shane L
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  22. #22
    DS
    DS is offline
    Fellow Frogger! DS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Southern Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    641

    Default

    As an additional point to removable dampers. My 1969 Safari has them on it. When I bought the car I didn't like how the car rode. Bench testing the spheres showed they were all gassed correctly. I took the dampers apart to confirm they were set correctly and they were. I took the bold step of turning each damper disc over. Suddenly I had a superbly riding car! My lay guess was the discs spend their working life bending one way so "fatigue".

    Of the spheres I have re-gassed I have only ever closed the filling screw hand tight with the gassing unit and then simply nipped them up with multi grips. Always fitted a new o-ring too.
    Citroen Car Club of New South Wales member.

    My Citroen ID21F can be seen here http://www.flickr.com/photos/frontdr...7605999522616/

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Camperdown 3260 Australia
    Posts
    3,025

    Default

    I had a problem like that with my 6H. Firstly they had to be set to Safari pressures. Then I wondered why it was as hard as a rock. the problem was eventually traced to incorrect damper assembly. I found that they are slightly dished and by swapping the direction of fitting ------concave side outwards I had a superb ride on the rear.
    Cheers Gerry

  24. #24
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warrnambool
    Posts
    2,301

    Default

    After a while they seemed to change from dished to folded (well, lightly creased, anyway) damper discs. Same principle of directionality applies. Interstingly, all the manuals seem to mention dishing and none mention folding or creasing.

    Roger

  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,334

    Default

    I noticed the document above listed "W/O" damper holes.... and wondered what it meant.



    Pick the valves from the brake fluid cars The spheres had only been off the cars for a few days and I was horified to find they were going rusty They have been in a tin of engine oil for quite some time now.



    LHM valve



    brake fluid



    I also have two of these.... They must be really early valves I think I might put them under the back of the car and see how crazy soft it is..... We'll call it "The seasick special" Look at the size of that center hole OMG they must be soft !!!! The car would have to flop up and down like it's got a mind of it's own

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sphere identification-p1160104.jpg   Sphere identification-p1160102.jpg   Sphere identification-p1160101.jpg   Sphere identification-p1160099.jpg  
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •