CX Water Pump Belts
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  1. #1
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    Default CX Water Pump Belts

    I'm experiencing excessive wear on the (pair of) water pump drive belts on the '85 CX 2500ie Pallas Auto.
    Apart from triple checking the obvious things like pulley run out and alignment, is there anything else likely to be causing the problem, please?
    Paul

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger
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    Age of the belts?
    Are they bottoming out in the pulley vee, suggesting either pulley wear or the wrong belts?

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    I change the belts on my car roughly every two years. They will do many more but they dry out and crack and make a significant amount of noise.

    V belts are pretty tolerant of mis-alignment but do check (as David suggested) that they are not too small in section and bottoming out in the groove. Look for the bright shiny section in the pulley groove to see where the belt is actually touching the side of the groove. Note that you can over-tighten V-belts. They actually make more noise and can place huge loads on the pulley bearings. I tension my belts to be just tight enough to avoid slipping.
    Robert Thorne
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  4. #4
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    Belt age - bought from businesses with seemingly good turnover, so presumably well within shelf life, but wearing out after about 1000km.
    One pair (probably wrong type) was bottoming. Now on Dayco 11A0825 - supposedly a matched pair. Well above vee when new.
    Experiencing major belt slip when attempts made to use the aircon; with one belt slipping more than the other (checked with chalk marks).
    (And if rubber dust was worth money, I'd be a little less poor!!!)

  5. #5
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    OK - the above was in response to DavidS, RobT's must have come in while I was sending it.
    Hence - in response to Rob - I had been told they need to be tight, but maybe I am overtghtening?
    Can't make much sense of Mr Haynes - so can anybody recomment a correct procedure, please?

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    That's bizzare, I've never worn out a belt in a CX. I usually replace them when they are age perished. The belts need to be very tight, so tight infact the water pump bearings won't last long If you dont' have working A/C you can run them MUCH more loosely. The idea of twin belts no doubt is so you can run them without the tension. Sadly this doesn't work with the A/C compressor and alternator pulling there full load (as they will when the A/C is on ... the alternator load is huge too. Remember you'll have both radiator fans going, front and rear A/C units running full bore, compressor clutch etc......).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    The 11A0825 are the belts I'm using. They have been in since Cit-In Launceston - that would make them about 3 years old. THe air-con in my car works and is regularly used in Brisbane at this time of year. The belts in my car are no longer quiet - but still not slipping. There is a small amount of dust accumulating over time - but not excessive.

    So that would suggest that the compressor (and maybe alternator) are loading up more than 'normal'. My first suggestion would be to get the air-con pressures checked. And maybe confirm that the alternator output is OK. Most auto electricians do both and these are simple tests.

    My car might not be the best comparrisson though. I have recently fitted a new generic Bosh alternator and the air-con had a new compressor is running Hychill HR-12. This gas runs at lower pressures than R134a so presumably takes less torque to run the compressor.

    I tension the belts by 'feel' and typically set the tensioner about half way between 'removing slack' and 'pretty tight'. Run to check the noise level. New belts should be fairly quiet with lights and air-con on. Don't expect silence, and squeeling is proably too loose. My experience has been that belts with notching on the inside (bottom of groove) are noiser than those without. And I always run my belts over the tensioners so that the belts don't have to wrap 'backwards'. Theoretically they should probably go under the tensioners. The friction generated and therefore power transmitted is directly proportional to the angle of wrap.
    Robert Thorne
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    Citroenless - for now...

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    As Shane says - I've never seen a broken belt. But they do get old and dry and require more tension to keep them quiet. I prefer to change the belts (once they start to shows signs of cracking) and keep the tensions down, primarily to look after the bearings. My car still has the same water pump that was on it when we bought it about 12 years ago. I have done about 140,000 km in that time. There are signs that the pump has been replaced at some time during the cars life. The double belt tensioner has been replaced twice and the air-con tensioner once as preventive maintenance. I do have a new water pump sitting on the shelf waiting for its turn. It has collected a lot of dust over the years....

    I work from home - so my car only gets driven every few days. Occasionally, it might go a week between outings. Most trips are long enough for the car to get properly hot. Sometimes I get thru a tank of fuel in a week - sometimes it will go a month between fills. It's still on full rego and is expected to earn its keep. Rarely used cars actually seem to have more trouble than those that regularly driven....
    Robert Thorne
    Brisbane
    Citroenless - for now...

  9. #9
    Member Chimbu's Avatar
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    I, too, spent years trying to solve the CX belt issue. Some time ago Shane spoke about tightening to near destruction. This works but at the cost of component life.

    Encouraged by success with my D, I looked at different solutions.

    The best I could come up with is:

    EWP- electric water pump-

    http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electr...0-details.aspx

    1) remove existing WP;

    2) make up blanking plate out of 10mm aluminium and machine two 50mm holes;

    3) Buy two alloy thermostat flanges at Supercheap;

    4) Alu weld both to 50mm holes;

    5) Remove alternator;

    6) Make up new alternator bracket;

    7) Purchase modern 120 amp Bosch alternator (lo excitation, hi output at idle). In the vernacular a 'police special'-

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ws/eBayIS...m=130812872491

    8) Buy two new radiator hoses (rummage through Supercheap shelves);

    9) Drill hole in cylinder head blanking plate (drivers side) to fit water temp sensor;

    10) Mount up WP and inside controller.


    Steps 5, 6 & 7 can be omitted if using original Citroen alternator.

    Benefits:
    a) Three normally tensioned belts instead of five, no tensioned to near destruction;
    b) No mech WP to wear out;
    c) EWP intelligent- responds to cooling load.
    d) Comes to operating temp quickly;
    e) Desired operating temp driver selectable;
    f) EWP runs on after shut-down to relieve heat from head;
    g) Panel mounted digi controller indicates water temp and EWP function accurately;
    h) Increased power;
    i) Aircon and alternator belt direct from cam pulley, no third party distress



    I have here a near new Camshaft drive belt pulley base CX SKF rubber mounted-

    http://cx-basis.de/eshop/product_inf...oducts_id=5939

    Bought new from CX basis in my experiments to reduce shock load from camshaft.
    Used for one month before implementation of the EWP solution and thereby bypassing the belt load problem entirely. I'd want 2/3 of original price though so not cheap.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CX Water Pump Belts-pc030001.jpg   CX Water Pump Belts-pc030002.jpg   CX Water Pump Belts-photo.jpg   CX Water Pump Belts-pc030006.jpg   CX Water Pump Belts-pc030007.jpg  
    Last edited by Chimbu; 3rd December 2012 at 04:51 PM.

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    That looks so strange.... There so so much space there without the waterpump in the way!!!
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  11. #11
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    Thanks, everybody. Next lot of belts ordered. Meanwhile, I had been wondering about the aircon - everthing is fine until it is switched on, then the whole belt system dies - and I have received comment that the aircon is by far the best CX aircon ever seen. So, maybe it's too good. Off we go to annoy an auto electrician!!!

  12. #12
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    Well, I'm just back from the Auto Electrician. Pressures OK (low if anything - running Hychill). So (and while I think EWP's are great - thanks, Chimbu) I think I'll just concentrate on possible problems with belt alignment/run out, at least for the present.
    Which brings me to the next question - I can soon make up alignment shims, but are replacement cam, water pump and/or idler pulleys (may need one or two after checking runout if I can't repair satisfactorily) available from anywhere on the Planet?
    Paul

  13. #13
    Member Chimbu's Avatar
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    Hychill is great, n'est ce pas, Coota. Lower pressures (typically 12 bar hi/ 2 bar lo) mean less compressor strain.

    As for alignment- do you have squeal? Intermittent squeak generally means tension, continuous means alignment.

    CxBasis has stocks of all the pulleys etc you'll need. But expensive. I have used them a lot and would recommend.

    A fundamental design flaw on the CX is that the engine wasn't designed for aircon. Running accessories from the cam (half speed) means that the pulleys have to be geared up, putting strain eventually on the timing chain. Adding one pulley after another to the already stressed WP is one pulley too many.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    You should be using matched pair belts. When I needed new belts for mine the guy had the size but warned they were old stock so ordered a pair for me. When they arrived they were tied together and when tested on the shops sizer came up as exactly the same size. He thinks we might have got a matched pair as he has never seen belts tied together like that. Could be that or manufacturing tolerances are better than they used to be.

    The belts should sit slightly proud of the pulley, if they don't, get the next width up. Mine is running 11A0825 like you are and they are fine. The belts need to be very tight, I use a tube about as long as a plug tool to tension the tensioner. Is the tensioner spinning freely and without play? Mine can handle the air-conditioning running R134a and by the sounds the compressor makes head pressure gets very high.

    I would advise against modifications. The system works and has worked for 40 years. If yours still eats belts there must be something else wrong. Better to find and fix that
    Mine

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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! Rob T's Avatar
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    Tensioners are available from places like CX Basis - at a price. I haven't seen the correct ones show up on eBay for a long time. I did call our local INA distributor with the part numbers but they don't have any listings. So they are either no longer available (NLA) or were never avilable from anyone but Citroen.

    But they are just a needle roller sitting on a shaft and press fitted into an arm. I have re-made the A/C belt tensioner using a timing belt roller with standard bearing that I bought at Consolidated Bearings. I think the roller was for a Barina - but it doesn't matter what car it is from. I picked this one because it was about the right size and uses a standard, easily replaced bearing. It was cheap - $26 from memory. I asked my local machine shop to make up a replacement shaft and welded it into the existing arm. I have attached a photo and the drawing I used. I will do the same with the main tensioner next time it needs replacing.

    Don't panic about replacing your tensioners if they feel OK when you spin them. The bearings get old and rattly but will still run for a long time. It is time to replace them if the bearings feel 'lumpy' and don't run smooth.

    And don't worry about the timing chain. I took the cover off my engine to check the condition of the chain and pulleys when I had the engine out a couple of years ago. I was prepared to replace both chains and pulleys if required. After close inspection I decided to leave it alone. There was very minor wear, but nothing to worry about. My car has now done 330,000 km and I use the air con most of the time. So the timing gear seems to be well up to the task.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CX Water Pump Belts-ac_idler.jpg  
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    Last edited by Rob T; 7th December 2012 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Forgot to add attachments
    Robert Thorne
    Brisbane
    Citroenless - for now...

  16. #16
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    Friends,
    I very much doubt the "tensioner" on the water pump belts is the problem - it is running true and quiet.
    My aircon belt does not have a tensioner - but probably wouldn't matter either way.
    The water pump belts have all been matched pairs.
    But I have been using a lever about 400mm long (ring spanner) to tension them. Maybe too much!!!
    Or that leaves misalignment (yes, "continuous" squeal as per Chimbu's comment) - and/or posible run-out on the camshaft pulley - so that's where I'm going next.
    Fools rush in ... .

  17. #17
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    And to Return to History ...
    After a few years of fiddling with other cars and only doing short runs with the CX, I pulled things apart today - and yesterday, and ... .
    Turns out the "Drivebelt Pulley Base" (P/N 123414) has very little spline left. So, looks like I can get one from CX Basis - but does anybody have a spare o two floating around Oz., please?
    Paul

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