Driving Citroen ID19 = scary
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Default Driving Citroen ID19 = scary

    Hello, Froggies!
    I have test driven my 1969 ID19 Last night. I found it to be quite scary.
    WHY
    1) I do`nt know the position of gear very well.
    2) I can not see the indicator knob at night time!
    3) I can not go down to 1st gear while in the move so I had to drop gear to 2nd most of time.
    4)Some reason 3rd gear did not go at all even accelerator was pressed all the way down to the floor!!!
    5)Car stopped in the middle of intersection and incoming traffic nearly killed me and ID19. ->I could not shift gear because that famous clutch lever bent.

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    But my concern is the 3rd gear was very slow. I cannot remember how 4th was. What do you think?

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    For a start; sort that clutch cable bell crank by replacing it with a new original spec one 9 not a repro ----they are usually "merde".
    The gear change was probably affected by insufficient clutch throw due to the bent bell crank.

    Cheers Gerry

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    For a start; sort that clutch cable bell crank by replacing it with a new original spec one 9 not a repro ----they are usually "merde".
    The gear change was probably affected by insufficient clutch throw due to the bent bell crank.

    Thanks Gerry pro I hope that was the case.
    Yes metal was so easy to bend and I had to rebend last night so I can drive car in to the garage..... Now I know why cable seems too long and I had placed spacer. I think lever was already bent. Previous owner had modified it but did not do properly.
    I think I need not just lever but piece lever is attached, because previous owner did jammed bolt so it will not come off. I guess I can cut it off. I will try weld another piece on top. But I am more happier If I can got to Shane`s place get spare.

  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yours has the upside down gearchange patern doesn't it Performance should be "adequate" in 3rd gear. It's a high gear.... 4th gear is very much an overdrive.

    Give the old thing a good tune up and make sure the brakes aren't binding. I've towed an 800kg wind up caravan behind mine. It was certainly quite sedate up hills, but 2nd and 3rd gears certainly get a good workout

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Yours has the upside down gearchange patern doesn't it Performance should be "adequate" in 3rd gear. It's a high gear.... 4th gear is very much an overdrive.

    Give the old thing a good tune up and make sure the brakes aren't binding. I've towed an 800kg wind up caravan behind mine. It was certainly quite sedate up hills, but 2nd and 3rd gears certainly get a good workout


    Shane L.
    Mmmmmm, do you think 3rd gear was not engaged properly because Lever was bent like Gerry Pro said?
    Ah~ I was just looking at parts list according to that I was changing gear from 1 to 2 to 4. No wander there was no power.
    I hope that is the case.
    I will bleed break again because I had replaced rear spheres. They are very soft but I feel front one is busted now!!!!

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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    I just spoken to Mel from Citro. Like shane said Gear is up side down and also told me that do not trust the marking on the steering thing.
    Now I am very confused.
    So was I driving around with 1 st gear!??!?

  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    I just spoken to Mel from Citro. Like shane said Gear is up side down and also told me that do not trust the marking on the steering thing.
    Now I am very confused.
    So was I driving around with 1 st gear!??!?
    There only four gear there ... try them all and see where they are If your changing from second to the overdrive 4th .......... Yes it will be undrivable. 4th if very much an overdrive. 3rd gear gets a lot of use.

    I haven't driven an early one, but the '63 I have is the same gearchange as a renault 16ts. Pull towards you and up (1st), straight down (2nd)... let the gearshift center itself, straight up is 3rd, straight down 4th. Yours will be reversed to that.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    There only four gear there ... try them all and see where they are If your changing from second to the overdrive 4th .......... Yes it will be undrivable. 4th if very much an overdrive. 3rd gear gets a lot of use.

    I haven't driven an early one, but the '63 I have is the same gearchange as a renault 16ts. Pull towards you and up (1st), straight down (2nd)... let the gearshift center itself, straight up is 3rd, straight down 4th. Yours will be reversed to that.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Shane! Thanks for that. Now it is clear. I was shifting from 2 nd to 4th. Now wonder I did look like cruising at 60 mile/h but it was max speed. According to your explanation, what it written on the steering cover is correct. Driving Citroen ID19 = scary-imgp0082.jpg

    I will fix the lever and adjust wire position and try again.
    Thank you.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    There only four gear there ... try them all and see where they are If your changing from second to the overdrive 4th .......... Yes it will be undrivable. 4th if very much an overdrive. 3rd gear gets a lot of use.

    I haven't driven an early one, but the '63 I have is the same gearchange as a renault 16ts. Pull towards you and up (1st), straight down (2nd)... let the gearshift center itself, straight up is 3rd, straight down 4th. Yours will be reversed to that.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Shane he said it was a 1969 car didn't he? The later cars bell crank levers were not as durable as the early long stroke cars and quite different in their shape and action. I have never heard of anyone having a problem with an early clutch linkage.
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    Shane! Thanks for that. Now it is clear. I was shifting from 2 nd to 4th. Now wonder I did look like cruising at 60 mile/h but it was max speed. According to your explanation, what is written on the steering cover is correct. Click image for larger version. 

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    I will fix the lever and adjust wire position and try again.
    Thank you.
    I think that diagram is upside down for a 69 car. You should be able to select reverse by pushing forward and down, not up!
    Cheers Gerry

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    I think that diagram is upside down for a 69 car. You should be able to select reverse by pushing forward and down, not up!
    It's a typo, his is a first nose, so I imagine a 1960 model (the 0 being next to the 9 on the keyboard ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    That explains everything--------except, it is pretty unusual to have a clutch linkage problem in these early models.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    You need to be patient when going up or down gears; you quite simply feel your way through in a gentle way. Don't force it. It's the nature of the beast. And no, you can't go from 2nd to 1st unless the car is at a stand-still. You get used to it, Kazu!

    It will take you a while to get used to how it works. If you're not going over 40mph around down, keep it in 3rd gear. As said previously, 4th is an overdrive.
    1972 SM
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    DS
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    On all non sycnchromesh cars I simply go 2nd before 1st and 3rd before reverse as a driving rule. I never get crunch. I have no idea why on the mechanics of that but I was told it eons ago by an old ID driver.

    If I ever have friends drive my cars I always have to enforce the idea that it is a slow change driving style. I quite like the early car change gate, it means top gear is up and out of the way of my long legs.
    Citroen Car Club of New South Wales member.

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DS View Post
    On all non sycnchromesh cars I simply go 2nd before 1st and 3rd before reverse as a driving rule. I never get crunch. I have no idea why on the mechanics of that but I was told it eons ago by an old ID driver.

    If I ever have friends drive my cars I always have to enforce the idea that it is a slow change driving style. I quite like the early car change gate, it means top gear is up and out of the way of my long legs.
    I'll do that even with my later D, i.e. 2nd. before reverse - likewise it was the way I was taught my someone wiser than me - described as opening the gate to reverse gear.

    Driving the early IDs is a learned practice, I found that if the car was rolling or on a very slight downward slope it would easily pull away in second so no need to panic for 1st.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Want to go into 1st whilst still on the move? Learn to double declutch. It is possible to do it reliably.
    Procedure----- Clutch in ------shift to neutral------clutch out --------raise the rpm to anticipated revs for road speed when in 1st ------.
    Clutch in again and shift into 1st ---- match revs to road speed-------- and clutch out.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    yes TYPO MINE IS 1961 ID19 AND REVERSE IS PUSH AND UP.
    I need to fix the lever and adjust clutch rod position. ( 1 mm gap)

  18. #18
    mnm
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    I'll do that even with my later D, i.e. 2nd. before reverse - likewise it was the way I was taught my someone wiser than me - described as opening the gate to reverse gear.

    Driving the early IDs is a learned practice, I found that if the car was rolling or on a very slight downward slope it would easily pull away in second so no need to panic for 1st.

    Cheers
    Chris
    Interesting.. thanks Chris. Will have to try that.. I've been engaging reverse quite slowly to avoid a crunch.

    Matthew

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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donat View Post
    You need to be patient when going up or down gears; you quite simply feel your way through in a gentle way. Don't force it. It's the nature of the beast. And no, you can't go from 2nd to 1st unless the car is at a stand-still. You get used to it, Kazu!

    It will take you a while to get used to how it works. If you're not going over 40mph around down, keep it in 3rd gear. As said previously, 4th is an overdrive.
    Yes I drive AUTO currently, I just tell myself as 3rd gear is like D position.

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    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caparobertsan View Post
    Yes I drive AUTO currently, I just tell myself as 3rd gear is like D position.
    Congratulations on getting the car on the road. I look forward to reading about your adventures. I hardly get a chance to drive my ID these days, but that's what happens when you have too many cars.
    1972 SM
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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donat View Post
    Congratulations on getting the car on the road. I look forward to reading about your adventures. I hardly get a chance to drive my ID these days, but that's what happens when you have too many cars.
    Ahhhh, I hope I will keep this car only-.
    Not Quite registered as yet. I was test driving so I can drive it to Citro for RWC test.... But I have not much time left as They are shutting business down by the end of this year. Otherwise, I need to take it to Paris Motors in Air Port West!

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    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    I went to Citro motors to get some part again. I bought Clutch lever assembly. This one is good one Lever is straight instead of L shape and It looks like more stronger and less stress to the part. But my clutch cable is too long. So I will have to fix my original one.
    My original clutch cable is 45 cm I need one with shorter one 35 cm-40 cm. I looked German part site but no luck. Is there anyone who can make exactly same cable assembly with same fitting?

  23. #23
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    You are actually using the synchromesh to stop the gears spinning with the engine (even if the clutch is depressed) because of a little friction at the spigot bush where the drive shaft goes through the clutch into the flywheel. If you are stationary, the synchro, when engaging 2,3 or 4, will stop the primary shaft spinning and voila, no crunch for 1st or reverse if you are quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    I'll do that even with my later D, i.e. 2nd. before reverse - likewise it was the way I was taught my someone wiser than me - described as opening the gate to reverse gear.

    Driving the early IDs is a learned practice, I found that if the car was rolling or on a very slight downward slope it would easily pull away in second so no need to panic for 1st.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    You are actually using the synchromesh to stop the gears spinning with the engine (even if the clutch is depressed) because of a little friction at the spigot bush where the drive shaft goes through the clutch into the flywheel. If you are stationary, the synchro, when engaging 2,3 or 4, will stop the primary shaft spinning and voila, no crunch for 1st or reverse if you are quick.
    I agree with all of the above about stopping movement.
    The situation here is the first nose cars with the first gear DOWN are non synchro on first gear.....and the skill of double declutching has been long lost.

    Second nose cars do have synchro on first, and by then the gear shift was first gear up.
    As for failure of clutch actuation levers...we had two ID 19s.. one without power brakes and one with the low real pedal ( NOT the mushroom ) ... the Heidelberg '61 and the Heidelberg "62 had different actuation methods and even anchored the clutch cable to the bell housing differently .. as discussed above BOTH were pretty cobbled up sorts of structures....and it still amazes me that Citroen, masters of hydraulics, should equip IDs with a cable clutch, when the hydraulic actuation was already in production in DS 19s.

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    I have fixed bent lever and I can shift gear now.
    I was doing 60 mph( according to gauge) at 3rd gear. Yes I feel bit of power with 3rd gear.
    I adjusted clutch push rod so clutch arm will return all the way so it will engage at full pressure.
    However when I open the bonnet after driving, I see some smoke and smell from clutch housing.
    Is that normal? I need your opinion.
    Thanks

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