C5 cylinder head
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default C5 cylinder head

    Hello froggies

    ive got a hopelessly unreliable 2004 c5 hdi diesel wagon.

    Despite having it serviced as per logbook, the latest catastrophe is that the timing belt broke, wrecking valves etc and according to my local dealer will cost $6K to fix.

    it has done 120,000 km and had a new timing belt at the 100,000 km service.

    Is this unusual?

    any hints on how to get it fixed at a reasonable cost? It's probably only worth $7K.

    Thanks for any help.

    Russell B

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    What a nightmare. I'd be asking some questions of the shop that did the 100k belt change. We're new tensioners used? Maybe they will come to the party a bit.

    Dave


  3. #3
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I would suggest there's a good bit of fat in the $6K quote. Worst case with an indy should be $4K if the damage is as described, otherwise ring around the wreckers and see if you can get a complete motor low mileage. There was a mob with a diesel C5 wagon of low km in Sydney, Fleabaying it last week - can't recall if it's 2.2 or 2.0 though.

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger
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    It is of course possible that all that has broken are a few of the 'fingers' that operate the valves. I've seen one owner get lucky with a car like yours and the same problem, plus, look for ErikBM's thread on his 2.2 with the same sort of problem. They seem to be the (possibly deliberately) weak item in the head. I wouldn't immediately assume all the valves are 'wrecked' or that you need another head or engine.

    If you need another head or engine, you would want one from a car built after about late 2001 as the damper, alternator and timing adjustment arrangemsnts changed. Your car will have the simpler 2 part damper and an alternator with a one-way pulley as opposed to the early style with a 3 part damper and a fixed pulley alternator. They don't mix. The timing adjustment moved from the camsprocket to the crankshaft, with a pulley that is not keyed. It would be better to keep the car as built by using a later style engine. Riverside Spares in Sydney might have one a may Sydney Wide. If you can DIY and have room, there may well be a similar car with a dud gearbox etc., but a good engine floating about.

    So, why did the belt let go? Did the damper/pulley or tensioner fail or did it just snap, which would be rather unusual after only 20K in the car.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! young 4 old pug's Avatar
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    Default C5 cylinder head

    2004?

    So SOHC? Same as a 406???

    And $6k???!!!!!!!

    A catastrophic c5 16V PETROL I've done where every single valve bent was around $3500 (with extras done too) so if its the 8v HDi in your C5 6 [email protected]@dy $k?????????

    If it is, tell dealer to go shove it.



    If its same as a 406 (HDi) and you are mechanically minded, you remove belt, take out cam, remove shattered rocker rollers, replace rollers, refit cam, new belt kit, start engine and drive away. This, of course, is if it has dropped a belt in a "nice" way... If the engine is the one I think it is, the valves are straight up and down, so when it drops a belt, the piston hits valve, valve goes straight up and smashers rocker gear

    I've had 3 406HDi dropped belts, all fixed this way, in under a day, with out removing the head.


    But if its not that engine, ignore above....
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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! young 4 old pug's Avatar
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    Default C5 cylinder head

    I'm still trying to figure out how they came up with $6k. Did they quote to do a bottom end rebuild while the head was off????
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  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! XM Mechanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by young 4 old pug View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out how they came up with $6k. Did they quote to do a bottom end rebuild while the head was off????
    Well if the valve have hit the pistons and damaged them how would you suggest that the pistons are changed without removal of the bottom end?
    Regards,

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  8. #8
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    In the DW10 engine, and probably others, the pistons come matched to the block. So, you have to buy a new block/piston set, but I doubt that's in the $6K as it would cost almost half the quoted cost even if it was still on offer. Other than a few dents in the piston crowns, the bottom end is only likely to be damaged if it runs out of oil, water or has ingested water.

    Costs can add up quickly and at full dealer retail, it won't take long to run up $6K. There would be some single use parts required and they are probably assuming their worst case.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! young 4 old pug's Avatar
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    Default C5 cylinder head

    Last time I quoted a genuine 406 DW10 short block it was around $16k. Mind you, it was 2005.
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  10. #10
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    They (pistons) are highly unlikely to be broken, though.

    The dealer - based on our OP's location - is that mob in the 'Gong. I strongly urge the OP to make friends with an independent and start saving money.

    If belts broke spontaneously at 20% of service life, we would all have reason for alarm. I have never heard of this on a PSA motor, however. The only slight possibility is age in years since the prior belt change, has exceeded the change interval.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by young 4 old pug View Post
    Last time I quoted a genuine 406 DW10 short block it was around $16k. Mind you, it was 2005.
    A couple of years ago, a DW10B bare block with pistons and rings, that is just the block and pistons, would have been around $3K+ from Citroen. You still had to obtain or reuse the rest of the engine parts to build up a complete engine. You'd be paying $10K+ for a new engine in a crate, but it's clearly uneconomic. It seems that a good used engine is the least expensive option when faced with a potential rebuild of a PSA diesel.

    p.s. Ateco may well have some bargain deals on major items like that as they will want to clear out their dead stock Citroen parts before they relinquish the distributorship this year.

  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    Thanks for all the replies froggies.

    Yes, the c5 is currently resting at Corban in Wollongong.

    The same dealer that did the 100,000 km service where the timing belt was changed.

    I've got enough info to go back to them and ask some more informed questions now.

    I have a feeling that the least cost fix will be to buy a working engine from a wrecker.

    Any recommendations for a dependable indie between Wollongong and Nowra, or do I have to get it to Sydney?

    RussellB

  13. #13
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    You'd have more choices up in Sydney; that's possibly the biggest variable. Jason Hantos might do a "housecall" but you would need to ask him.

    I have a bloke who would otherwise be likely to fetch the car up to Sydney for less than a commercial tow; he does odd jobs to supplement a pension.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellb View Post
    ...
    I have a feeling that the least cost fix will be to buy a working engine from a wrecker.
    ...
    Maybe, but not necessarily, because you will be up for the R&R labour and you will want to do the timing belt regardless. The least involved job would be to leave the engine in the car, remove the camshaft and replace the broken rockers/fingers. Assemble it, pin the rotating bits, fit a new cambelt and see what happens. Changing the cambelt is half way into this job anyway and you have to do that regardless. While there is no guarantee it will work, it's worth considering as the first possible option. Pugs have the same engine, so it's not only Citroen workshops who would know about it.

  15. #15
    con
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellb View Post
    .

    Yes, the c5 is currently resting at Corban in Wollongong.

    The same dealer that did the 100,000 km service where the timing belt was changed.


    RussellB

    I would get the NRMA involved - ring them and ask if they still provide this type of service: A technical inspection and report as to what caused such a premature failure of the belt. Either the belt manufacturer or the installer is at fault.

    Best of luck.


    con...

  16. #16
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    Suggest you give Tom Dolan at Citromet in Larra st yennora a call. I know he has one or two c5 diesels in pieces ATM. He might be able to get yours going with parts off those. Probably your best and cheapest shot.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Maybe, but not necessarily, because you will be up for the R&R labour and you will want to do the timing belt regardless. The least involved job would be to leave the engine in the car, remove the camshaft and replace the broken rockers/fingers. Assemble it, pin the rotating bits, fit a new cambelt and see what happens. Changing the cambelt is half way into this job anyway and you have to do that regardless. While there is no guarantee it will work, it's worth considering as the first possible option. Pugs have the same engine, so it's not only Citroen workshops who would know about it.
    David is right, Replace rockers, fit a cambelt kit [ with tensioners] and you should be right. Rockers break, they're designed that way to protect the valves and pistons on diesels. If it drops a valve, the engine's history.
    The main issue here is why did the belt break? collapsed tensioner bearing perhapse, or fitment damage maybe. Investigate and you'll find a cause somewhere. Belts don't break at that milage. You can PM me if you're stuck, only too glad to help.


  18. #18
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    For what it's worth, when our 2004 C5 2.0l HDi had its cam belt replaced at 100k kms, something went wrong with the change and the belt "slipped" ... there was a bang, a lot of black smoke but it kept running. A couple of the rockers / fingers did break and were replaced. The motor is now up to 170k kms and going strong... Not quite the cam belt breaking, but it sounds like not dissimilar consequences.

    Simon

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