Berlingo 5th gear syncro.
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  1. #1
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    Default Berlingo 5th gear syncro.

    My recently aquired Berlingo appears to have weak syncro on 5th gear. All others are excellent. I am aware that the Ma5 box is suspect but would like to know if the 5th gear thing is the weak point or is it something else that usually goes first. The van is a 2005 with 154000km on it. Its records show that it supposedly had an oil change plus Nulon additive and I have seen it reported that the oil type should be BV 75w-80 with no mention of additives. It changes ok if I do the old fashioned "double shuffle" (the other ancient monuments on the forum will understand) but a quick crunch if changed normally. I hopefully wondered if the Nulon was too slippery to allow the syncro bits to do their thing (probably wishful thinking. I will change the trasmission oil to the recommended type and try it. Finally is there a recommended MA5 gearbox man around if it needs to be done.Any advice would be appreciated.
    Regards Dennis.

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  2. #2
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    The usual problems with the Berlingo gearbox are clutch release bearing, control linkages, a rivet on a selector rod, pinion bearing (a gearbox killer) and/or the input shaft bearing. I guess you'd have to dismantle it to check for 5th gear wear.

  3. #3
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    The box is quite a simple one and can be removed with engine in-situ. Can't see a proper all-rounder type garage having trouble going through it.

    EAI were doing good prices on Valeo clutches for Blingos, recently.

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    Nulon added with the correct grade oil generally improves the change quality & reduces noise.

    Richard

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalderton View Post
    My recently aquired Berlingo appears to have weak syncro on 5th gear. All others are excellent. I am aware that the Ma5 box is suspect but would like to know if the 5th gear thing is the weak point or is it something else that usually goes first. The van is a 2005 with 154000km on it. Its records show that it supposedly had an oil change plus Nulon additive and I have seen it reported that the oil type should be BV 75w-80 with no mention of additives. It changes ok if I do the old fashioned "double shuffle" (the other ancient monuments on the forum will understand) but a quick crunch if changed normally. I hopefully wondered if the Nulon was too slippery to allow the syncro bits to do their thing (probably wishful thinking. I will change the trasmission oil to the recommended type and try it. Finally is there a recommended MA5 gearbox man around if it needs to be done.Any advice would be appreciated.
    Regards Dennis.
    The other approach with gearbox issues like this is "if you can live with it, select and hold the gear, and there are no untoward noises, leave well alone". Seriously, if it is just the odd crunch, you could just change gears very carefully and live with it. It might go for years. While it is "going for years" find a spare box and stash it in a corner and maybe even have it checked out properly. Fit it at your "leasure" with new seals, new clutch and things like that.

    Of course if it gets worse, or get noisy when running, you have to take action.
    JohnW

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  6. #6
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    John, having seen the carnage which ensues with an ignored MA gearbox, I assure you that is not the way to go! They are a lightly built unit compared to predecessors, relying on each element being well within lifetime - overdesign does not exist for one component to prop up another that's failing.

    A bearing and seal kit is about £170 posted, so for $250 you are ensuring the box will go a while longer. The aftermarket isn't big on synchros for these, so it's fair to assume they last well.

    Clutch fork pivot bushings, clutch, seals and bearings are the crux of a full overhaul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    John, having seen the carnage which ensues with an ignored MA gearbox, I assure you that is not the way to go! They are a lightly built unit compared to predecessors, relying on each element being well within lifetime - overdesign does not exist for one component to prop up another that's failing.

    A bearing and seal kit is about £170 posted, so for $250 you are ensuring the box will go a while longer. The aftermarket isn't big on synchros for these, so it's fair to assume they last well.

    Clutch fork pivot bushings, clutch, seals and bearings are the crux of a full overhaul.
    Very happy to stand corrected. Good to get all views on the table I reckon. Mine is less well informed I'm happy to concede!

    I'm nursing an ever so slightly noisey gearbox at present, but it's not got worse in years. Do I take it that in this case, synchro issues reflect not synchro but a shaft end float matter due to bearings etc so engagement is not happening properly?

    I have heard that these gearboxes aren't so easy to find S/H due to demand. Is that correct?
    JohnW

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  8. #8
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    None of your cars listed, have an MA box. The BE3 does have aftermarket support for synchros, so you might well assume they wear. Are you sure the clutch is fully disengaging every time?

    A Sydney wreckers price for a used MA gearbox would be likely north of $500 for a going unit, but I still would kit it.

  9. #9
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    What usually happens is that the neglected pinion bearing (originally best Polish quality!) lets go and throws out a roller. In many cases it breaks CWP teeth and puts a hole in the case, making the gearbox largely useless as the pinion, being part of the shaft, is not separately replaceable. You can buy a new crownwheel, but it's expensive locally.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    What usually happens is that the neglected pinion bearing (originally best Polish quality!) lets go and throws out a roller. In many cases it breaks CWP teeth and puts a hole in the case, making the gearbox largely useless as the pinion, being part of the shaft, is not separately replaceable. You can buy a new crownwheel, but it's expensive locally.
    I have seen one or two of these with nasty looking holes in the casing... So, always dismantle and check eh?
    JohnW

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  11. #11
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    Thanks to all for the input. It appears that syncro's are not the normal problem. The box is not noisy at this time so I will go ahead with the oil change and see what happens then if necessary pull it and investigate further.Strange that it is only the syncro on 5th gear and other than that the box is very good. Other than that I am quite impressed with the little thing,it is quite comfortable and very good in our declining years to get in and out of with the height of the seats. Perhaps a set of 405 seats would be an improvement as the originals are not great. We shall see.
    Regards Dennis.

  12. #12
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    I've wondered about the seats, too. It seems the passenger seat foam is thinner than a 405 or 306 due to the way it perches on that storage well.

    EDIT: Bearing supplier link: http://stores.ebay.co.uk/fasttrack-b...=p4634.c0.m322
    Last edited by addo; 22nd October 2012 at 12:50 PM.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=addo;1111616]I've wondered about the seats, too. It seems the passenger seat foam is thinner than a 405 or 306 due to the way it perches on that storage well.

    I have got onto a set of 405 front seats and will in the fullness of time fit them. Will post results when it gets done.

  14. #14
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    A quick update on the G/box . I got some Penrite Trans-Gear 75w-80 oil for it and so took the van out 10km or so to warm up the oil ,came home and dropped it. Very strange pink colour and quite frothy and seemed very thin. Almost like ATF. Put the required 2litres of Penrite in and took it out for a tryout.Definately better,still a little nick as it went into 5th gear but smoother all round. I went to NW Sydney today to pick up a couple of 405 seats that I intend to put in the Berlingo (I immediately remembered why I left the Godforsaken place 25years ago) and the gearbox is still not right but certainly a lot better than previously. I will run it for a month or so and change the oil again for a fresh lot and see how it goes.
    I must say that the Berlingo exceeded my expectations in respect of almost everything, It is really a pretty good drive, rides pretty well for what it is ,not excessively noisy, goes well for 1.4 and goes round corners in a very convincing fashion.All Good.
    Regards Dennis.

  15. #15
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    I had a 5th gear problem with a be3 box in a s1 mi 16 ,it would jump out accasionaly ,thaught it must have been the linkage untill i lost it completely took the end cover off to discover that the nut on the end of the main shaft ,had come loose and flogged out the spline out,so if the end plate is removeable slip it off,and have a squiz pugs

  16. #16
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    Thanks for the thought. I will have a look when I change the oil again.
    Regards Dennis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalderton View Post
    Thanks for the thought. I will have a look when I change the oil again.
    Regards Dennis.
    Dennis, if it has ever jumped out of gear or felt as if it hadn't gone in fully, this suggestion is very seriously worth considering. I think my original thought on considering leaving well alone was "if it selects and holds the gear...". And of course that view was not universally supported, which is fair enough.

    However, if it jumps out at all, I'd not wait for the oil change. Hope I don't seem contradictory, but jumping out is much worse for my money than snicking a bit on the way in.
    JohnW

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  18. #18
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    JohnW It has never jumped out or refused to go in. With the oil and additive that was in the box it grated when changing into 5th gear. Since the oil change it is significantly better but still not perfect. If I do the old crash box "double shuffle"it goes in fine or a nomal change it sort of snicks as it goes in. It is quite manageable for me but a bit sus for my wife. I hope that another oil change may improve it even more but time will tell.
    Incidentally the 405 seats are a fairly easy fit using the original fixed base for the passenger side and the movable base for the drivers side.The only down side is the loss of the useful folding passenger seat feature.
    Regards Dennis.

  19. #19
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Useful information - ta. Did the mounting bolt holes fully line up, or was it easy enough to redrill?

  20. #20
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    On the passengers side I had to drill new holes in the base to match up with the threaded holes in the 405 Tubular Frame where the slides bolt on.Also you need to make a decent size hole in the front panel of the base to get your arm in to do up the floor mounting bolts as it is necessary to bolt the seat onto the base then the base to the floor. On the drivers side the Citroen seat tubes are welded in three short runs to the base and have to be cut off(1mm disc on angle grinder works well. Then the 405 seat unbolted from its adjustment slides and the Cit frame with its runners on the bottom is drilled to match the threaded holes in the 405 seat tubes. The base is the right width to accept the 405 seat without problems. No welding required just a bit with the agle grinder and a drill.The drivers seat feels a tad higher than the original but is a world ahead for comfort.
    Good Result Regards Dennis.

  21. #21
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    if its like the pug box you may be able to replace the 5th gear syncro with the box in the car it lives inside that pressed steel cover on the end of the box,

  22. #22
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    As far as I know it is a MA5 gearbox on a TU3JP motor and the same combo is fitted to lowbrow 206 for one so I would assume that it is identical to the Pug box. Tell me more on the possibility of Syncro change.
    Regards Dennis

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    im talking BE3 out of a 405 MI16 so i may be leading you up he garden path im afraid ,this box has a pressed steel cover on the end ,and as i said 5th is in there i had the syncro ring off to determine the spline was shot, so its possible on that box, not sure about yours .PUGS

  24. #24
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    5th syncro change is very easy. You can do it in situ. Same as a BE, take the end plate off the box(3 bolts and the filler plug if it has one). You will probably need a rattle gun to get the nut off 5th as you risk damaging the teeth with a breaker bar, you also need to lock it into 2 gears, by removing the dowl out of the 5th fork. Lock 5th down into gear, and select another gear using the selector arms(usually reverse). Rattle nut off. Make sure to clean the thread of the nut and the pinion and use loctite to refit. The later boxes (since 1/03) use a circlip to hold the syncro on instead of the nut ( no need to lock it into 2 gears), so be prepared you may need circlip pliers. From memory the nut is 27mm single hex.
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  25. #25
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    James Thanks for that. My Berlingo is a 2005 model so I would assume that it is a Circlip holding it together. It all sounds too easy but I will try to get a parts diagram so as to have a look at the system.
    Thanks again, the box works perfectly other than the 5th gear problem.
    Regards Dennis.
    Further to the above I have just had a look at a downloaded manual for the MA5 box and it shows plainly the circlip in the later model box. What I need to know (My Gearbox experience is minimal although my mechanical experience is reasonably extensive) is the parts required to reco the syncro. Obviously the circlip, The rearming plate? The Synchronizer hub and the Synchronizer sleeve? Experienced advice would be appreciated.

    Regards Dennis.
    Last edited by dalderton; 4th November 2012 at 07:54 PM.

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