General Mi16/BX16V starter motor removal.
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  1. #1
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Default General Mi16/BX16V starter motor removal.

    Following a period where the starter has been lazy, I have been trying to avoid this abominable job of removing the starter as I knew what a dog it was, having done it before on a series one BX16V.
    Below you'll find a series of pics showing the varying stages of the job.
    I'll post them as they become available in the hope that it may save others the problems usually found when the first one is done.

    Firstly, jack up the car and put axle stands under it; much easier standing to work on a car than bending and believe me, you can spend some time bending on this one.

    Secondly, disconnect the battery; most important.

    Thirdly, be sure yu have a decent set of metric sockets and allen keys as well as a set of allen key sockets, all of the above with 3/8" drive due to the restricted spaces you'll be working in.

    Fourthly, drain the coolant into a container.

    Disconnect the accelerator cable at the quadrant and lay it back across the tappet cover out of harms way.
    Disconnect the hose at the filler funnel, fuel hose to the fuel rail, as well as just about every coolant and breather hose that there is there.
    Disconnect the AFM by unclipping the air filter element and laying it up towards the passengers side mudguard.

    Remove the intake plenum; this requires a 6mm allen socket as well as 2 nuts (11mm I think?) When you try to remove it from the head, you'll find that on the drivers side (LHS looking from the radiator) there's a black steel lifting bracket held by 2 allen screws again 6mm but you will see that access is only there for the top one. Remove it and leave the other. With a ball pein hammer, tap the lifting bracket towards the front of the car. It will pivot on the remaining allen headed bolt. Remove the fuel rail along with the injectors; these are hed in place by 2 X 10mm bolts with earth wires attached. Remember to refit the earth leads. After removing the plugs, by wriggling the rail and the injectors, you should work the injectors free of the head as well as the fuel rail as they are fitted with "O" rings that often get tight at both ends.
    theThe manifold (or plenum) will then lift off exposing the P/R, oil filter assembly and F/D as well as a few sensors, the alternator and of course the starter motor. Remove the starter motor by removing 3 allen key headed bolts (as shown in the pics) these take an 8mm allen headed socket. I doubt that an ordinary allen key will shift these as they are tight. I also found that if I also used an 8mm open ended spanner on the socket once I had loosened them up a bit, it was easier than trying to use a rathet or than trying to do it by hand. At the rear of the starter motor, there are 2 bolts 10mm socket and a 3" extension needed to shift those. At that stage, disconnect the wire from the battery and alternator which are connected to each other as well as the energising wire to the solenoid.
    I'd suggest replacing as much of the wiring as is humanly possible whilst this is exposed as on my car with low mileage, I have noticed some pretty serious degradation of the wires in particular the one that runs from the starter to the alternator.
    The brackets at the rear are adjustable and this I would imagine would or could be so that the starter gear will mesh square on the ring gear.
    Next I'll take the starter to pieces and show the pics on how to diamantle recondition and reassemble it.
    But for now, here's the pics up to this point.

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    Any questions or suggestions, feel free to PM me.


    Alan S
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails General Mi16/BX16V starter motor removal.-dsc00198.jpg   General Mi16/BX16V starter motor removal.-dsc00199.jpg   General Mi16/BX16V starter motor removal.-dsc00200.jpg  
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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Alan,

    mate just to make you feel better I could probably have it out of a BX 8valve in less than an hour from underneath

    Whip the three allan key bolts out, jump under, off with the oil filter, drop the air-con compressor (leave it dangling), unbolt the starter rear mount and wires and drop her out.

    Don't worry you can stir the shit out of me the first time I have to remove the starter on the CX

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  3. #3
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    I've heard of it being done from underneath on an Mi16 as well, but there's so much else you should inspect, it's worth going the whole hog.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  4. #4
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    You wouldn't do it on a 16V from underneath due to the pressure regulator and flow divider as well as all the air/con and hydraulic plumbing.
    I wouldn't even dream of doing it any way but the way I have when you see the amount of degredation of wiring and other things in this little cavern of intense heat.
    I now have the starter out of the car and have discovered the bearing that the cog sits against is half seized and the bush at the front is also very tight. Both been left to sit in oil overnight to loosen.
    I'll try to get some more pics tommorrow when I strip the starter. No rush at this stage due to it being a weekend so the brushes etc won't be available until Monday.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  5. #5
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    OK, we now have the starter motor out of the car and on the bench.

    First job; clean all the grime and grease off it. Can of cheap jack degreaser, a brush and some detergent laced water and a piece of clean rag.

    Now, hold it in a vice.

    Before you start dismantling, get a centre punch and pop mark the motor from rear to front. Rear mounting frame, end plate, motor body, then motor body again at the cog end, then the front plate and do them all in line. I have seen marking pen used and it is far easier to see and far easier to rub off particularly with cleaning solvents, so be warned.

    To start dismantling, remove the rear mounting plate as a beginning, then look at the housing near the solenoid; there's a pin that goes through there that is used as a pivot for the arm activated by the solenoid and which pulls the motor cog into mesh with the ring gear. Be careful handling this arm; it's plastic! Tap the pin out from the end it's not right out to the face of the housing on.

    Now, go back to the rear end of the starter and remove the 10mm bolt. Forget the plate that looks like a locking plate that you were about to butcher; it comes off with the bolt (which is under a raised cover plate held on by 2 X 8mm hex headed bolts). When removed, you should find a spring thrust washer, a steel spacer washer and a fibre washer.
    Remove the 13mm nut attached to the solenoid that has a braided wire running into the innards of the motor, then remove the two bolts (13mm) that the two 8mm nuts were attached to that held the back mount plate on. These pass completely through the casing and hold the front to the back plate. Tap the solenoid loose and this will release the aforementioned plastic fork and the solenoid plunger will pop out.
    Tap the back plate and this should now come off easily...Look out for the springs that maintain the pressure of the carbon brushes on to the commutator. They fit straight onto the back plate and push upwards onto the brushes. The more meat left on the brushes, the stronger the tension on these springs will be. My commutator looks as though it could take a 5 - 10 thou skim. The brushes were down to about 6 - 8mm. Tested the solenoid and it appears to be operating OK at this stage but there is evidence of a fair amount of arcing by the carbon brushes.
    Next job is to try to source the new brushes and get the commy skimmed.


    Alan S
    Last edited by Alan S; 15th May 2005 at 02:54 PM.
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  6. #6
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Here's the breakdown of the components in the starter so as to make the posting above make a bit more sense.

    First pic:

    Number: Description.

    1 .......... Pin for pivoting arm

    2............Pivoting arm (plastic)

    3...........Flat washers on mount and backplate

    4...........Carbon brush with square terminal (other is soldered in)

    5...........Brush holder (also plastic)

    6...........Cover plate for 10mm bolt on shaft end

    7...........10mm bolt with attached washer/locker and thrusts (under)

    8...........Commutator (needs skimming)

    9..........Nuts to hold solenoid in place

    10........Nuts to hold rear mount

    .................................................. ...................



    Second pic.

    Number: Description:

    1.........Rear mount

    2.........Bolts through end plate and bolted into front plate.

    3.........End plate (note springs attached to apply pressure to brushes)

    4.........Solenoid body

    5.........Solenoid spring

    6.........Solenoid plunger

    7.........Main rotor

    8.........Front plate

    Note: Hole for pivot arm pin circled!!

    .................................................. ...................



    To date, all cleaned up and checked; new set of brushes ordered. Auto electrician has the gadgetry to test the solenoid and reckons it checks out alright. I had already dropped a meter on it and come to the same conclusion; this was confirmation.
    One carbon brush has worn on about a 15 degree anble on the working face, the commutator is black and scuffed so has to be skimmed to give a flat even surface. The brushes were sticky in their mountings, one more so than others.
    I've come to the conclusion that this problem is a multiple of problems. Wiring leading to the sytarter shows signs of major degredation; sticky brushes unevenly sitting on the commutator, a carboned up face on the commutator that requires a face off and a partially sticky bearing at the front which is now quite free.


    Alan S
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails General Mi16/BX16V starter motor removal.-dsc00205.jpg   General Mi16/BX16V starter motor removal.-dsc00204.jpg  
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  7. #7
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Brushes arrived in a kit form, comprising brushes (X 2) springs and caps for springs.

    Genuine Valeo part number 594066 (Code NE431) and this suits a Valeo Starter D9E 48

    Cost A$41.30 (which is supposedly Trade price.)

    Going on appearance and size by comparison to the ones that came out, I am still of the opinion that internally corroded wiring (or degraded wiring) and the brushes sticking partially in their holders were the main problems.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  8. #8
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Took the starter (in pieces) to the friendly retired engineer.
    Skimmed the commutator in the lathe to rid it of the black marks caused through (in his opinion and mine) reduced voltage being fed via carbon brushes.
    Removed the old brushes................that's when the fun started. The area where it connected to the field coils on one has a black plasticised coating over it which had to be cut off using a scalpel. It is then pulled off the lug it attaches to. This is apparently held on not by solder (as you'd expect) but is apparently "heat welded" or fused onto this lug. The centre of this lug is copper but it is surrounded by a solft alloy type material that is not compatable with solder. It just turns to marbles and simply runs off.....time to panic!! Using a very small flat file, we then file away until most of the alloy is gone and just a slim strip of copper is showing. Wet it with a soldering flux and using an electric soldering iron, heat from the underside. Apply resincore solder to the top. Then again file but this time also file closer to the field coil until it appears to look like the letter "T" inverted with the top of the "T" being at the bottom near the coil. Reheat and try to solder again wiping the runny solder off using a wire brush and keep retrying until the copper strip "tins."
    At this stage, tin the braided copper on the pig tail of that particular brush and then fuse the pig tail to the lug. Finished.
    Upon reassembly, it was found that the springs supplied with the kit were slightly different to the originals (that tells you something) in that the originals had 8 winds in them whlst the replacements had 7 but the new ones were about 4mm longer than the originals. Upon examining the old brushes, it is found that there are clear marks from where the spring has sat on the rear of the old brushes and it is offset and the angle of wear on the bushes is greater on the side that shows the spring mark (naturally) so you have to wonder if perhaps the originals were a little too stong in tension and contributed in part to the problem.
    Shaft going into bushes were lightly greased as was the bevel gear on the starter cog. The centre pop marks were all lined up and the pin holding the engagement arm is easily sorted as to which way it fits as it has slight teeth on the last part to go into the hole. A nail or small screwdriver locates the arm in the hole that the pin fits in prior to knocking it back in.
    Grab a set of jumpers and test the solenid and the actual motor and Bingo; all systems go.
    Next step is to rectify the cause; namely the wiring.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Preetty much all back together although I've had a few distractions that have been keeping me off this job for most of each day turning what should be a couple of hours into a saga, but in the wash up we eventually reckon we found the cause of most BX16V/Mi16 starter problems.
    Hidden in the bowels of the plenum and associated plumbing, we found that most of the wiring gets itself well drenched in oil and the wiring fortunate enough to miss out on the oil bath ends up covered in verdigrease (white rust) neither of which is conducive to good conduction of power. Any we had any suspicions about were cut off and replaced. We also found that the wire that heads up to the relay that operates the immobiliser was costing us a couple of volts, so it was decided to by-pass this as we have other things installed to make the car thief proof anyway and we now are getting a full charge at the solenoid.
    When tested with no coil or fuel rail attached (a situation that usually tends to make the starter really work and ousually only able to maintain 60% - 70% of normal operating speed) it spun over at a faster rate than it did prior to be being removed with everything ready to fire, so the conclusion is that the operation is a success.

    Total cost: Less than $45 plus plenty of time but everything under there we now know is fully serviceable.
    Definitely not a job to be attempted without vehicular back up due to the potential to have a hold up, definitely not a job to be attempted roadside (if it breaks down on a trip, jump start it) and definitely not a job that has any shortcuts whatsoever that can be done; by that I mean radiator out, underneath or using witchcraft. There is definitely only one way to do it and whilst it might appear to be the long way, anyone who reckons they can do it any other way are fooling you and themselves. I say this due to not only the location of the mounting bolts and the stuff that needs to be taken off, but also the type of mounting bolts used. For the record, it took 2 experienced Citroen savvy people with a lot of experience between them close to 10 minutes to manouvre it with everything removed (as per the pics above).
    Hope this saves a few of you the potential heavy expense of a new starter (that I've seen quoted up to almost $600 ) and answers any doubts you may have on doing the job.
    More pics to follow.


    Alan S
    Last edited by Alan S; 24th May 2005 at 10:43 PM.
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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